Why I don't think there are "Xinjiang atrocities"？

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SkinnedWolf
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30 Mar 2022, 10:49 am

kraftiekortie wrote:

Neither am I. I'm an atheist.

But if, say, Israel destroyed mosques and churches in the Palestinian Authority territory, I would find that to be an extreme atrocity.

Considering that it is impossible for Israel to build a mosque for Palestine, I think there is a slight difference.

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30 Mar 2022, 10:51 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:

kraftiekortie wrote:

Neither am I. I'm an atheist. But if, say, Israel destroyed mosques and churches in the Palestinian Authority territory, I would find that to be an extreme atrocity.

Considering that it is impossible for Israel to build a mosque for Palestine, I think there is a slight difference.

Unlikely, but not impossible.

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30 Mar 2022, 11:04 am

Fnord wrote:

SkinnedWolf wrote:

kraftiekortie wrote:

Neither am I. I'm an atheist. But if, say, Israel destroyed mosques and churches in the Palestinian Authority territory, I would find that to be an extreme atrocity.

Considering that it is impossible for Israel to build a mosque for Palestine, I think there is a slight difference.

Unlikely, but not impossible.

All right.
Correction:
Considering that the Chinese government has historically built a large number of mosques for its own Muslims, and Israel has not done the same for Palestine. I think there are subtle differences.

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magz
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30 Mar 2022, 11:11 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:

magz wrote:

Government-controlled version of Islam?

http://www.chinaislam.net.cn/indexh.html
This is the official website of the China Islamic Association. They are distributed in various Muslim gathering places.

All legal religious associations in China, as well as other parties (yes, China is nominally a democratic consultative system, although I doubt they can have much influence) are "communicated" by the United Front Work Department.
The CCP will not allow an internal force with great autonomy. Just as they prohibit assemblies and prohibit unsanctioned formation of organizations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism

It's fascinating that billions of Chinese just accept it, isn't it? People just don't think of it in these terms.

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SkinnedWolf
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30 Mar 2022, 11:21 am

magz wrote:

SkinnedWolf wrote:

magz wrote:

Government-controlled version of Islam?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism

It's fascinating that billions of Chinese just accept it, isn't it? People just don't think of it in these terms.

We know.
I will introduce how the Chinese people view the government in the next thread.

Zhao Ziyang. A former Chinese leader, banned from being mentioned on the Chinese internet, tried to push through democratic reforms. He has close ties to the events of 1989.
During about 2000-2013, strong anti-establishment tendencies were the dominant political thought of ordinary Chinese. This contains a lot of devaluation of the national culture and ethnic characteristics, as well as a highly glorified description of the political system of the Western world.
At that time, many people thought that there would be a color revolution in China.
I personally think the decline of this political ideology has something to do with Xi's successful anti-corruption work.

Judging from historical experience, the overthrow of the own government with the help of external forces will probably not achieve the expected results.
So for now my proposition is to "improve" the government.

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magz
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30 Mar 2022, 11:43 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:

Judging from historical experience, the overthrow of the own government with the help of external forces will probably not achieve the expected results.

Here, it worked great - but it's probably not universal. Middle Eastern countries tend to explode into dangerous mess in similar circumstances.
In East Asia, South Korea seems to be doing fine under Western influences. Much better than North Korea.

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SkinnedWolf
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30 Mar 2022, 11:46 am

magz wrote:

SkinnedWolf wrote:

Judging from historical experience, the overthrow of the own government with the help of external forces will probably not achieve the expected results.

I don't know Koreans.
But judging from Chinese sources, I think many phenomena in South Korea are very "suspicious".

And China and South Korea are fundamentally different.
China's volume is too large.
What kind of internationalist fighter will cultivate a strong opponent for himself?

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magz
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30 Mar 2022, 11:48 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:

What kind of internationalist fighter will cultivate a strong opponent for himself?

What do you mean?

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SkinnedWolf
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30 Mar 2022, 11:50 am

magz wrote:

SkinnedWolf wrote:

What kind of internationalist fighter will cultivate a strong opponent for himself?

What do you mean?

There are many possibilities that cannot be predicted.
But it is unlikely to point to a satisfactory result.

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magz
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30 Mar 2022, 12:32 pm

"The change needs to come from within."
They say it in psychology but I think it applies to politics, too.

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SkinnedWolf
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30 Mar 2022, 12:41 pm

magz wrote:

"The change needs to come from within."
They say it in psychology but I think it applies to politics, too.

Consider that for thousands of years, the Chinese have referred to the government as "parents".
It's not an easy path.

But it is the only path for China.

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magz
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30 Mar 2022, 12:57 pm

I think we generally underestimate the aspect of culture.
This thought came to me for the first time when I was in Korea (South, of course), in 2004, with people from all over the world. It made me realize how much of who I am is actually my culture.
Poles are rebelious yet moral - we see very clear distinction between law and ethics. Seeing people from different countries, I realized most cultures don't.
When I saw the relations between Koreans and their bosses, I started to understand: if capitalism and democracy combined with Korean culture looks like this, I start to understand how North Korea is possible.

Very... Confucian. No way people would rebel, social hierarchies are sacred, even at cost of doing things wrong (when your boss makes dumb decisions, you don't even think of questioning him). I heard Japanese second pilots have to go through special training of questioning their superiors after accidents caused by second pilot not correcting errors made by the main pilot.

Very different culture from mine.

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SkinnedWolf
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30 Mar 2022, 1:09 pm

magz wrote:

Very... Confucian. No way people would rebel, social hierarchies are sacred, even at cost of doing things wrong (when your boss makes dumb decisions, you don't even think of questioning him).

In 2000, Jiang Zemin proposed "governing the country by law" and "governing the country by virtue".
I don't know if other regimes of the same period would claim that rulers need or already have "virtue".
But this is clearly very Confucian.

Gone are the days of widespread dissemination of Confucianism itself.
But such obedience is widespread in China's public and private systems.
The new generation began to have widespread rebellious ideas, but few actually acted.
When you don't have any force to speak of, and you can't get basic living security after you leave your job，what else can you do ?

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magz
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30 Mar 2022, 1:14 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:

When you don't have any force to speak of, and you can't get basic living security after you leave your job，what else can you do ?

Network.
That's how my ancestors survived. Family links, friendships, friends-of-friends... illegal gatherings were always "birthday parties" or something similar when they were illegal.

But I'm from a whole society functioning like this.
Now how we deal with over 2 million Ukrainians coming to our 40 million country in one month - all without refugee camps or tensions? Volunteers. People don't even look at officials, they create facebook groups and act.
It's a cultural thing. We couldn't live in Chinese system at all.

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SkinnedWolf
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30 Mar 2022, 1:37 pm

magz wrote:

SkinnedWolf wrote:

When you don't have any force to speak of, and you can't get basic living security after you leave your job，what else can you do ?

Just yesterday. One of the ADHD online social groups I joined with close to 2,000 people was banned.
I can only use the bug to browse to the last bit of chat history. One of the topics was "external network bloody videos" and another was "the corruption of the past". It is unclear which topic led to this result.

The banning standard is determined by the platform itself, and the platform usually greatly exceeds the government standard for its own security (although we do not know what "government standard" is).
This is also why Chinese print publications are much more tolerant of content restrictions than online platforms.
For this reason, we use a lot of metaphors when talking about political debates that point to negative aspects of China itself.
I suspect that the Chinese will therefore have the pinnacle of satire in the world.

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magz
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30 Mar 2022, 1:53 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:

The banning standard is determined by the platform itself, and the platform usually greatly exceeds the government standard for its own security (although we do not know what "government standard" is).

I wonder if the platforms themselves know...
Unclear rules and possibility of harsh punishments promote overzeal.

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