Pastor Barnhart explains right-wing anti-abortion politics.

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kraftiekortie
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10 May 2022, 11:24 am

No, it doesn't mean "not having sex unless one wants to get pregnant."

I just meant "use as much protection as possible." Ideally, the woman should have a diaphragm or take the Pill, and the man a good condom.



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10 May 2022, 2:51 pm

Fireblossom wrote:
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While both parties may have rights in this matter (eg a rapist should have none), relationships are more complicated than this so it's not that simple - and my question remains unanswered.


...What about a situation where the woman who gets pregnant IS the rapist? Has anyone here thought of that? I mean, it's far rarer for the rapist to be the one to get pregnant than it is for the victim, but I've heard of a case like that, so...

In that case, the man does not have the right to force the woman to get an abortion, because it is her body (and in any case, rape convictions can take a long time, if there is ever a conviction at all).

That being said, I think the man should be allowed to renounce all legal obligations around the child, or claim sole custody (unless he is deemed an unsuitable parent). I think child support laws can help to improve children's welfare, but there should be no obligation to support a child conceived in such traumatic circumstances.



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10 May 2022, 3:01 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
No, it doesn't mean "not having sex unless one wants to get pregnant."

I just meant "use as much protection as possible." Ideally, the woman should have a diaphragm or take the Pill, and the man a good condom.


All of those can fail, hence why access to abortion is necessary for those times. Then of course there are women who want babies and get pregnant, but find out complications are developing that make the pregnancy riskier to their health and make the hard decision to get an abortion rather than face those additional health risks.


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kraftiekortie
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10 May 2022, 3:06 pm

I'm pro-choice. I never said "abortion should not be available."



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10 May 2022, 3:07 pm

Fireblossom wrote:
... What about a situation where the woman who gets pregnant IS the rapist?  Has anyone here thought of that?  I mean, it's far rarer for the rapist to be the one to get pregnant than it is for the victim, but I've heard of a case like that, so...
If a woman has sex with a man without his consent, that is rape (i.e., he is stoned, drunk, asleep, comatose, or otherwise cognitively incapacitated and cannot give consent).

But what is it called when a woman has mutually consensual sex with a man, but lies to him about being unable to conceive?

I mean, a man cannot tell if a woman is using contraception just by looking at her, and he would have to get uncomfortably invasive with her to find out by touch.

So she says, "It's okay, I'm on the pill!", and a year later, the man is slapped with a paternity suit for what he thought was a safe one-night stand.

Is there a legal basis for the man to claim she committed fraud?



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10 May 2022, 3:14 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I'm pro-choice. I never said "abortion should not be available."


I know you're pro-choice, just was expounding more on why it should be available for the anti-abortion people posting in this thread. Not that I really expect it to change their opinion I suppose.


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10 May 2022, 5:26 pm

Could the needing access to abortion because protection failed be skirted if they just invent a morning after pill that can go beyond just the next morning? Like a 'month after pill'?



kraftiekortie
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10 May 2022, 6:00 pm

Nope....for pro-life people, that would be an "abortion."



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10 May 2022, 6:21 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
No, it doesn't mean "not having sex unless one wants to get pregnant."

I just meant "use as much protection as possible." Ideally, the woman should have a diaphragm or take the Pill, and the man a good condom.


All of those can fail, hence why access to abortion is necessary for those times. Then of course there are women who want babies and get pregnant, but find out complications are developing that make the pregnancy riskier to their health and make the hard decision to get an abortion rather than face those additional health risks.


You do realise you don't have to have typical intercourse involving the penis and the vagina.
There are plenty of other types of sexual interactions.
If the laws are changed, reason would suggest there would be a reassessment of the types of sexual activity involved.
Problem solved.
Perhaps I am being too intellectual, here. ;)


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And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

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10 May 2022, 6:26 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I'm pro-choice. I never said "abortion should not be available."


I know you're pro-choice, just was expounding more on why it should be available for the anti-abortion people posting in this thread. Not that I really expect it to change their opinion I suppose.


I think there would always be exceptions to the "no abortion" rules.
The mother's potential death as a result of pregnancy springs to mind. 8)


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Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


Pepe
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10 May 2022, 6:31 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Nope....for pro-life people, that would be an "abortion."


My understanding is that theists would see conception as the beginning of life.
And if a theist was committed to adhering to the principles of their religion, they would have no choice but to be an anti-abortionist.

Perhaps I am being too rational here? ;)


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


kraftiekortie
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10 May 2022, 6:36 pm

Yep.....that's what they believe.

But the abortion issue is much more complex than that.



Pepe
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10 May 2022, 8:55 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Yep.....that's what they believe.

But the abortion issue is much more complex than that.


I am trying to narrow things down. I am using the "Baby Steps" approach.
Sorry for the pun. ;)


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


ilovepalmtrees
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10 May 2022, 10:58 pm

I fully agree with the pastor. I don't use the term "pro-life" anymore. I use the term "pro-birth" because most of those people dont care about life after your born. Pro-life would be to advocate for universal healthcare, living wages so it would be affordable to have a kid, quality education for everyone, not separating families at the border, anti-racism, etc. I rarely see pro-birthers advocating for this.

The two main arguments pro-birthers use is 1. Abortion is a sin under their god but not everyone believes in their god in fact my god and religion believe women have the right to choose and moreover we can't legislate based on your religion and 2. Maybe people shouldn't have sex as if a baby is somehow supposed to be a punishment for sex. They completely ignore that women can be raped by men or are often afraid to say no due to fear of violence. Moreover, these people believe that no matter what situation you find yourself in, you're supposed to pull yourself up by your bootstraps so they will complain about their taxes going to food stamps, WIC, and "welfare queens". This is why I can't stand today's republican party.



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11 May 2022, 1:07 am

Well if Roe vs. Wade is overturned, will life be that just because there are more restrictions? I mean there are a lot of people online saying it will be the end of hook up culture, but the free love movement did exist before the Roe vs. Wade case though, and everyone was hooking up in the 60s before then. People thought that condoms and the birth control pill were enough.

I also had the conversation with my gf about how early a woman can tell if she is pregnant, since some women say they cannot tell until a couple of months down the road, but my gf says that's not true, and you will miss your period if you are pregnant and therefore will be able to tell in a month or less. Does she have a point there?



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11 May 2022, 4:08 am

all that will happen to abortion here in amuuuurica is that it will go underground in many places and become unaffordable to many, resulting in many more deaths due to botched self-administered abortions, and much more legal jeopardy for millions of amuuurican women.