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Pepe
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19 May 2022, 2:01 am

cyberdad wrote:
magz wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
well what has Soviet troops raping German women in WWII got to do with the current conflict? Most of those soldiers whom you were referring to weren't even Russian, they came from Soviet republics and probably included Ukrainians among their number.
Continuity of the tactics.
Also, the ones most infamous in Ukraine are Chechens and the most dying ones are Buryats, so this tactics is also continued.


I think conflict in 1945 was far more brutal than in 2022 + the Soviet soldiers had a score to settle with nazi collaborators as many lost family to the Nazis and their collaborators.


And that justifies the rape, torture and murder of helpless civilians.
Got it. :thumright:


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Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

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magz
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19 May 2022, 2:34 am

1945 was a finish after 5 years of an extremely brutal war, preceded by just as brutal terror regime in Soviet Union.
2022 was preceded by a low-profile local armed conflict with successfully reduced civilian casualties and well-going development in other fields.
Which makes the atrocities of 2022 even more outrageous.


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cyberdad
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19 May 2022, 2:49 am

Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
magz wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
well what has Soviet troops raping German women in WWII got to do with the current conflict? Most of those soldiers whom you were referring to weren't even Russian, they came from Soviet republics and probably included Ukrainians among their number.
Continuity of the tactics.
Also, the ones most infamous in Ukraine are Chechens and the most dying ones are Buryats, so this tactics is also continued.


I think conflict in 1945 was far more brutal than in 2022 + the Soviet soldiers had a score to settle with nazi collaborators as many lost family to the Nazis and their collaborators.


And that justifies the rape, torture and murder of helpless civilians.
Got it. :thumright:


No of course not. But invoking the old Soviet Union is about as meaningful as me invoking Hitler to explain what's happening in Germany.



magz
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19 May 2022, 4:36 am

The past does have an impact on the present.
Germany has traveled a long and difficult path that Russians, on large scale, so far refuse to travel - acknowledging and admitting the harm they've done, as both individuals and the whole society enabling it.
There's no healing without calling the harm by its name. Even generations later.

Btw, this problem is quite universal and it's a frequent source of prolonged ethnic/racial tensions in many places of the world.


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SkinnedWolf
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19 May 2022, 4:43 am

At least we know how taboo Germany is now for nationalism/fascism/Nazi after a series of "changes".
I don't think there are a lot of contemporary Germans who dare openly miss the Nazi era.

But it seems that we are not seeing the same changes in Russia.


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kraftiekortie
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19 May 2022, 8:13 am

There are Russians who are not for Putin, and who want to advance from all the crap.

There is hope, yet......

Saying this, it's important to note that Putin was part of the old Soviet apparatus. He was a colonel in the KGB.



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19 May 2022, 9:00 am

There was a "method" to Hitler's madness, too.....

All those Nazis had very organized minds, unfortunately.



Fnord
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19 May 2022, 10:21 am

"Good" people are identified by their moral behavior.  "Evil" people by their work-ethic.



Pepe
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19 May 2022, 6:15 pm

Fnord wrote:
"Good" "Democrat" people are identified by their moral behavior.  "Evil" Republican" people by their work-ethic.[/color]


Fixed it for you. 8)


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


Pepe
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19 May 2022, 6:19 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
There are Russians who are not for Putin, and who want to advance from all the crap.

There is hope, yet......

Saying this, it's important to note that Putin was part of the old Soviet apparatus. He was a colonel in the KGB.


Agreed, but...
As I said months ago, pootin had significant support in Russia.
He may be losing this now that the body bags are piling up.

pootin's tactic was to start a war, regain territory, and that in turn converted into his rise in popularity.
It worked before.
I don't think Ukraine will work this way, however. 8)


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


Last edited by Pepe on 19 May 2022, 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kraftiekortie
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19 May 2022, 6:20 pm

I don't actually agree with that.

There are plenty of amoral Democrats.

There are plenty of moral Republicans. The thing is that, under Trump, it's not fashionable to be a decent, moral person---so plenty of people hide that aspect of themselves.

Really, in truth, I don't place any politician on a pedestal.

I hope this Zelensky guy doesn't turn out to be a creep, after all. He doesn't show any signs of it now----but let's hope the "true colors" he shows are decent ones.



kraftiekortie
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19 May 2022, 6:21 pm

Has anybody gone into a YouTube channel known as "1420"? This young guy goes around interviewing Russians, and asking provocative questions.

I'm not saying it's anything "authoritative" or anything. And most of the people surveyed are Moscow people of the relatively "upper crust." But I still find it interesting. Some people say things that might cause them to end up in jail.



Last edited by kraftiekortie on 19 May 2022, 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pepe
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19 May 2022, 6:24 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
There was a "method" to Hitler's madness, too.....

All those Nazis had very organized minds, unfortunately.


There was a hell of a lot of competing politics in the Nazi hierarchy, and that diminished its effectiveness.


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


kraftiekortie
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19 May 2022, 6:28 pm

This sort of thing is inevitable when you have a dictator. Or, alas, even if you have an enlightened leader.

I'm glad Germany decided to fight on two fronts; this was one of the main reasons why Germany didn't ultimately prevail.

Even now, in Ukraine, the Russians acknowledged that fighting on more than one front was a recipe for disaster. This is why even non-Ukrainian people on YouTube could now go into Central Kyiv, and survey the damage from missiles dropped the day before.



cyberdad
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19 May 2022, 10:53 pm

I should point out that the OP is incorrect to claim that Ukraine is wrong for defending themselves.

But are the current leadership in Ukraine and members of the Ukrainian forces 100% blameless for this conflict? That remains to be scrutinised and debated by historians.

I think back to how quickly the international community praised the Burmese democracy movement led by Aung Sun Su Chi like she was an angel (she was awarded the Nobel peace prize) but strangely kept quiet when she was elected to power in Burma and and was indirectly supporting the genocide of the Rohingya people in western Burma and other tribal groups in the country (but then again Rohingya are disposable brown people not like blonde Ukrainians).

Zelensky's legacy remains to be played out and let's hope he is the leader the country needs.



magz
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20 May 2022, 1:45 am

Zelensky had been a president for almost 2 years before the invasion. No genocide was carried out. The state was struggling with corruption, otherwise developing in civil manner - even the Donbas conflict was kept in ways maximally reducing colateral damage (UN report).
So we do know what Zelensky's rule looks like without the invasion. Just a regular country that inherited two serious problems from its past - actually none of them ethnicity-related.


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