Page 17 of 21 [ 331 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21  Next

cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 54
Gender: Male
Posts: 29,364

20 May 2022, 7:36 pm

QFT wrote:
SpiralingCrow wrote:
How can the west interfere when help was specifically requested by Ukraine?


Didn’t cyberdad or one of the others also say that some ethnic Russians in East Ukraine regions requested Putin’s help?


I did report that this was highlighted by Vice media (who seem to be one of the few unbiased sources) as a possible precursor to Putin's decision to invade based on interviews some Vice journalist had with ethnic Russians who were actually on the ground in eastern provinces prior to Putin giving the order to his tanks to roll in. There was (according to Vice) definite panic on the part of ethnic Russians by counter-incursions by Azov and apparent night time terrorist attacks on civilians. Whether this was valid enough or serious enough to justify Putin's decision to invade is a matter of conjecture because we simply don't know the facts (like some here seem so confident to claim). However, it would not surprise me if this was blown out of proportion to justify invasion (one remembers the US doing something similar in South Vietnam in the 1960s).

The problem I have with the narrative that Putin is a megalomaniac and was always intending to come back and invade Ukraine since 2014 is they are basing that on an assumption and not what was actually happening on the ground in the Russian ethnic enclaves.

One interesting point that corroborates something fishy was the planned targeting of foreign students in Ukraine where there many reports in both Ukraine and Poland of right wing groups hunting non-white refugees like wolves during the night as women and children were freezing in the winter cold.

The fog of war has certainly settled on this conflict and as time progresses this might turn into a battle on two fronts for the international community to firstly kick the Russian troops out but then (perhaps) protect ethnic Russians from reprisal.



Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 22,754
Location: Australia

20 May 2022, 7:44 pm

magz wrote:
Pepe wrote:
magz wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
We shall see how things transpire in Ukraine. At some point Putin will pull out but will maintain sizeable troop presence in the occupied areas of the Ukraine.
That's not how "pulling out" works. "Pull out" means "stop occupying".
And, so far, it's Russian-occupied territories facing worst humanitarian crises.

This is what I find astounding. The areas that pootin wants to annex in the east have been totally decimated.
Perhaps he wants a no man's buffer zone?
You attribute too much conventional logic to this madness.
Russian actions can be best explained with Great Russia narratives on strategic level, together with corruption/scapegoating logic on tactical and operational level.
It's not to gain material wealth. It's to punish a nation for trying to escape "Great Russia" world.
Because "Great Russia" is a lie and Kremlin mustn't let this lie be exposed to the hole world.


But the end result still remains, nonetheless.
If pootin retains the eastern section he controls now, it is still a wasteland that will need a lot of resources (that pootin can't afford) to rebuild. 8)


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 22,754
Location: Australia

20 May 2022, 7:53 pm

SpiralingCrow wrote:
Pepe wrote:
magz wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
We shall see how things transpire in Ukraine. At some point Putin will pull out but will maintain sizeable troop presence in the occupied areas of the Ukraine.
That's not how "pulling out" works. "Pull out" means "stop occupying".
And, so far, it's Russian-occupied territories facing worst humanitarian crises.


This is what I find astounding. The areas that pootin wants to annex in the east have been totally decimated.
Perhaps he wants a no man's buffer zone?


You must separate what Putin says from what he does. What he does is far more telling. Was he really trying to "free Donbas from Ukrainian genocide?


Anyone who believes that is naive or lying.
Pootin has zero credibility.

SpiralingCrow wrote:
Or was was he trying to take over Ukraine as a whole in order put in his own puppet goverment?


His failed attempt at capturing Kyiv and murdering the government strongly suggests this was the aim.

SpiralingCrow wrote:
If he was really just trying to liberate Dobas why march to Kiev and bomb the entire country back to the stone age? Putin never cared about ethnic Russians in Ukraine. They are suffering the same fate and atrocities as non ethnic Russians. That is quite clear now.



pootin was attempting to gain approval at "home" as happened with his other murderous adventures.
I doubt "his people" are very happy with the crap pootin has put them in over Ukraine.

SpiralingCrow wrote:
He did not expect such resistance though which is why he had to give up on the entire country and started focusing elsewhere. He mostly likely wants to grab the entire coast line and a land bridge to it. It's no secret he wanted to resurrect the former USSR. Why else would he want to take NATO back to 1997? Luckily that won't happen.


Agreed.


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 22,754
Location: Australia

20 May 2022, 7:55 pm

magz wrote:
The West is not a side in this conflict.
The West takes a side in this conflict.
The sides are Russia and Ukraine.


Apparently, pootin disagrees with you. :mrgreen:


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 22,754
Location: Australia

20 May 2022, 8:07 pm

Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I should point out that the OP is incorrect to claim that Ukraine is wrong for defending themselves.
I never said Ukraine is wrong for defending themselves. . .
The implication is right there in the subject line YOU wrote for this thread -- "War in Ukraine: both sides are wrong".

Here is the syllogism of YOUR claim:

a. War in Ukraine: both sides are wrong.
b. Russia is attacking Ukraine, and Ukraine is defending itself.
: : Russia is wrong for attacking Ukraine, and Ukraine is wrong for defending itself.

The implication YOU made arises directly from YOUR claim.[/color]


Too simplistic, since there are other considerations such as Ukraine wanting NATO membership, NATO influences creeping closer to the Russian border, the ousting of a Moscow friendly Ukrainian government, and the strategic desire of creating a land bridge to the Crimean Peninsula, but pootin is still the villain in this tragedy.

I want to conquer China to eliminate a sovereignty threat to Australia, but people would be outraged with that, also, after laughing themselves to death. :mrgreen:


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 54
Gender: Male
Posts: 29,364

21 May 2022, 3:26 am

Pepe wrote:
I want to conquer China to eliminate a sovereignty threat to Australia, but people would be outraged with that, also, after laughing themselves to death. :mrgreen:


More the latter



magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 14,434
Location: Poland

21 May 2022, 3:30 am

Pepe wrote:
But the end result still remains, nonetheless.
If pootin retains the eastern section he controls now, it is still a wasteland that will need a lot of resources (that pootin can't afford) to rebuild. 8)
He can build military bases there and attack again (he or his successor) some 10 years later.
That's how Crimea and "republics" have been used.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 14,434
Location: Poland

21 May 2022, 3:40 am

cyberdad wrote:
QFT wrote:
SpiralingCrow wrote:
How can the west interfere when help was specifically requested by Ukraine?


Didn’t cyberdad or one of the others also say that some ethnic Russians in East Ukraine regions requested Putin’s help?


I did report that this was highlighted by Vice media (who seem to be one of the few unbiased sources) as a possible precursor to Putin's decision to invade based on interviews some Vice journalist had with ethnic Russians who were actually on the ground in eastern provinces prior to Putin giving the order to his tanks to roll in. There was (according to Vice) definite panic on the part of ethnic Russians by counter-incursions by Azov and apparent night time terrorist attacks on civilians. Whether this was valid enough or serious enough to justify Putin's decision to invade is a matter of conjecture because we simply don't know the facts (like some here seem so confident to claim). However, it would not surprise me if this was blown out of proportion to justify invasion (one remembers the US doing something similar in South Vietnam in the 1960s).

The problem I have with the narrative that Putin is a megalomaniac and was always intending to come back and invade Ukraine since 2014 is they are basing that on an assumption and not what was actually happening on the ground in the Russian ethnic enclaves.

One interesting point that corroborates something fishy was the planned targeting of foreign students in Ukraine where there many reports in both Ukraine and Poland of right wing groups hunting non-white refugees like wolves during the night as women and children were freezing in the winter cold.

The fog of war has certainly settled on this conflict and as time progresses this might turn into a battle on two fronts for the international community to firstly kick the Russian troops out but then (perhaps) protect ethnic Russians from reprisal.
Check your news sources.
You're repeating gossip that didn't stand fact-checking. Again.

There are no "Russian enclaves" in Ukraine. Russians and Ukrainians mix with each other to the point that prior to 2014, there was no common sense of a line separating Russian-speaking Ukrainians from Russians. It was a continuum.

BTW, Mariupol is by majority ethnically Russian - 95% Russian speakers, about 50% with close family links to Russia.
Look how the Russian army "liberated" them from those "evil Ukrainians".


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


SkinnedWolf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Mar 2022
Age: 23
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 1,533
Location: China

21 May 2022, 4:06 am

https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=405923&p=9040453#p9040237
I've seen some evidence supporting cyberdad's assertion.
Although this form of Nazism may not be aimed at Russians.


_________________
With the help of translation software.

Cover your eyes, if you like. It will serve no purpose.

You might expect to be able to crush them in your hand, into wolf-bone fragments.
Dance with me, funeralxempire. Into night's circle we fly, until the fire enjoys us.


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 14,434
Location: Poland

21 May 2022, 4:29 am

I mainly mean this "wolf hunting non-white refugees". That's been well-debunked.

Taking into account that this mass shooter was active months after this war started, there's no reson to assume anyone in Azov supported him - rather, he's taking their cause to push his own.

Wearing the same symbols - you know, how about all those Hindus who wear swastikas?


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


SkinnedWolf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Mar 2022
Age: 23
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 1,533
Location: China

21 May 2022, 4:32 am

My thinking is that this might suggest that the Azov Battalion did train/support some lethal "alt-rights" before the war.


_________________
With the help of translation software.

Cover your eyes, if you like. It will serve no purpose.

You might expect to be able to crush them in your hand, into wolf-bone fragments.
Dance with me, funeralxempire. Into night's circle we fly, until the fire enjoys us.


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 14,434
Location: Poland

21 May 2022, 4:38 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:
My thinking is that this might suggest that the Azov Battalion did train/support some lethal "alt-rights" before the war.
Azov Batallion was originally a bunch of nationalist paramilitarists themselves. After 2014, they got integrated into regular armed forces, trained, disciplined, armed and put under unified command.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 54
Gender: Male
Posts: 29,364

21 May 2022, 5:56 am

This isn't gossip, the refugees were being interviewed by an Australian news journalist

The Indian family (including mother with children) said when they crossed the border from Ukraine into Poland that along with surviving the freezing cold outside train stations they were being hunted by Polish far right groups during the night.

As you say many of the former nationalists are now integrated in the armed forces. But the question is whether they gave up their old beliefs, Judging from stories from foreign students escaping Ukraine there may be elements in the Ukrainian border forces who are discriminating against non-white refugees.



magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 14,434
Location: Poland

21 May 2022, 6:00 am

Maybe better post these articles, for what you posted before often appeared as if you didn't read much below the headlines. Everyone was freezing in February and there were occasional racist incidents in the fleeing crowds. I wonder if it would look any better (outside of the climate) if it was happening in Australia.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 22,754
Location: Australia

21 May 2022, 6:02 am

magz wrote:
Pepe wrote:
But the end result still remains, nonetheless.
If pootin retains the eastern section he controls now, it is still a wasteland that will need a lot of resources (that pootin can't afford) to rebuild. 8)
He can build military bases there and attack again (he or his successor) some 10 years later.
That's how Crimea and "republics" have been used.


That was always implied.
He needs to rebuild his military at the expense of growth/wealth infrastructure.
Soon the army will once again be cannibalising their bunkmates because they are starving, as happened on at least one occasion in the Soviet era. 8)


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 14,434
Location: Poland

21 May 2022, 6:06 am

Pepe wrote:
magz wrote:
Pepe wrote:
But the end result still remains, nonetheless.
If pootin retains the eastern section he controls now, it is still a wasteland that will need a lot of resources (that pootin can't afford) to rebuild. 8)
He can build military bases there and attack again (he or his successor) some 10 years later.
That's how Crimea and "republics" have been used.
That was always implied.
He needs to rebuild his military at the expense of growth/wealth infrastructure.
Soon the army will once again be cannibalising their bunkmates because they are starving, as happened on at least one occasion in the Soviet era. 8)
It's not funny that it's accelerating in exactly this direction.
Russian state is not better for ethnic Russians than many other states, even taking a lot of possible discrimination into account.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>