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Tross
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25 May 2022, 2:23 am

SpiceWolf wrote:
Tross wrote:
Normally, I like to see both sides of a conflict, but in this case, there really is only good and evil.


From your post I take it you consider Ukraine good and Russia evil.
Well this is a high ranking member of the Ukraine Military

https://i.redd.it/60o3yjcpb9n81.png

You just called this man 'Good'.
But the Nazis in Ukraine did not become 'good' simply because Russia attacked. They did not become nice, the moment Putin turned nasty. They will not be good afterwards.

Zelentsky taking the opportunity to wipe out all opposition parties and destroy all trace of Democracy in Ukraine(in the name of Fighting Russia) has, I fear, doomed that country, at least for a time.
https://thegrayzone.com/2022/04/17/trai ... pposition/

Wether it is doomed to one party Nazi rule, or one party Russian rule, will depend in the end, on which one of the two horrible alternatives wins.
Interesting. I was not aware of that. Still, as magz said, none of that justifies one country invading another in this day and age. I'm sure "nazi" wannabes exist in the US, should Russia invade that? As for that second piece, I'll have to see more sources corroborating that info (which I'll make a point of looking up), but even if it's true, that still doesn't justify Russia moving in. They can't claim to be heroes stepping in to put an end to tragedy when they themselves cause even more of it, and on a much larger scale.



magz
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25 May 2022, 2:34 am

Not all opposition - only supporters of the occupation. Ukrainian political scene is otherwise pretty diverse.

This country is at a f*cking hot, WWII-like war. High treason is a very real thing there, costing thousands of lives.


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25 May 2022, 3:02 am

Zelensky was playing fast and loose with democracy the year before the invasion.


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magz
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25 May 2022, 3:14 am

You tell me, especially in the face of what happened next, that disclosing secret military data to Russia were not a treason?


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Pepe
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25 May 2022, 3:15 am

magz wrote:
Yeah, sure, a guy with swastika tatoos totally justifies an invasion, mass shellings and murders of civilians, torturous "filtration" procedures, turning fluorishing (Russian-speaking!) cities to wastelands and threatning the world with global famine. Totally. It just changes everything, I guess.


Finally, you have come to your senses. 8O
About bloody time. <disingenuous> :mrgreen:


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Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
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Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
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SpiceWolf
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25 May 2022, 3:21 am

Tross wrote:
Interesting. I was not aware of that. Still, as magz said, none of that justifies one country invading another in this day and age. I'm sure "nazi" wannabes exist in the US, should Russia invade that? As for that second piece, I'll have to see more sources corroborating that info (which I'll make a point of looking up), but even if it's true, that still doesn't justify Russia moving in. They can't claim to be heroes stepping in to put an end to tragedy when they themselves cause even more of it, and on a much larger scale.


I didn't say it did, what I said was that Russia being bad, does not make Ukraine good and that adopting such a good vs evil mindset will do the average Ukrainian no favours. It will just make you delusional over time.

Putin isn't invading to denazify them, he wants their land for his own.
Just as America didn't invade Iraq to bring them apple pie, they were far more concerned with geostrategic oil access.

Adopting naive 'Goodies and Baddies' mindsets can lead to unfortunate outcomes, for example, all the weapons and money being sent to Ukraine, how much of that is ending up with the Nazi Generals? If Ukraine wins, do you think those Nazis will all disappear in a puff of
smoke, or will they perhaps say 'Their is no better time than now to seize the government!! !!'

How does that help Ukraine(as in the common person in the street)?



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25 May 2022, 3:32 am

Given Nato/UN/USA were unable to dislodge Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Castro, Pol Pot, Peron, Pinochet, Strassman and a series of dictators in other various countries (including north Korea) then I am not confident Putin will be dislodged either, Learning to understand and accommodate a homicidal maniac who has fingers on nuclear bombs might be more sensible than stoking the bear.



magz
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25 May 2022, 3:32 am

The swastika-tatooed guy is not any kind of a general.
Nationalists have negligible support and similarily negligible power in Ukraine. Exactly one seat in Verkhovna Rada, constantly diminishing since their peak in 2012.
There's no base for claims that Ukraine today is any more nazi than, say, Australia.

Western weapons make a world of difference for regular Ukrainians, especially for those in the occupied territories and for those in territories at risk of becoming occupied.

I really recommend the Timothy Snyder article.


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cyberdad
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25 May 2022, 3:39 am

magz wrote:
The swastika-tatooed guy is not any kind of a general.
Nationalists have negligible support and similarily negligible power in Ukraine. Exactly one seat in Verkhovna Rada, constantly diminishing since their peak in 2012.
There's no base for claims that Ukraine today is any more nazi than, say, Australia.

Western weapons make a world of difference for regular Ukrainians, especially for those in the occupied territories and for those in territories at risk of becoming occupied.


Is this a "canned response"?

I was referring to the OP's thread about trying to learn to understand Putin first and accommodating him (but within limits), He needs to learn that no harm should come to civilians.

I am not sure who mentioned Nazis??



Pepe
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25 May 2022, 3:39 am

Tross wrote:
SpiceWolf wrote:
Tross wrote:
Normally, I like to see both sides of a conflict, but in this case, there really is only good and evil.


From your post I take it you consider Ukraine good and Russia evil.
Well this is a high ranking member of the Ukraine Military

https://i.redd.it/60o3yjcpb9n81.png

You just called this man 'Good'.
But the Nazis in Ukraine did not become 'good' simply because Russia attacked. They did not become nice, the moment Putin turned nasty. They will not be good afterwards.

Zelentsky taking the opportunity to wipe out all opposition parties and destroy all trace of Democracy in Ukraine(in the name of Fighting Russia) has, I fear, doomed that country, at least for a time.
https://thegrayzone.com/2022/04/17/trai ... pposition/

Wether it is doomed to one party Nazi rule, or one party Russian rule, will depend in the end, on which one of the two horrible alternatives wins.
Interesting. I was not aware of that. Still, as magz said, none of that justifies one country invading another in this day and age. I'm sure "nazi" wannabes exist in the US, should Russia invade that? As for that second piece, I'll have to see more sources corroborating that info (which I'll make a point of looking up), but even if it's true, that still doesn't justify Russia moving in. They can't claim to be heroes stepping in to put an end to tragedy when they themselves cause even more of it, and on a much larger scale.


From the article: "Ukraine’s SBU studies torture and assassination from the CIA."
My point: All countries use brutal tactics in times of war, except maybe Russia. <sarcasm>

I am a little confused.
During WWII, those who were engaging in treason were executed, and this would have happened no matter what country. The UK was known to be particularly brutal.

Ukraine is at war, and those who assist the enemy are committing treason, is this not the case?
Please educate me.


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Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


Pepe
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25 May 2022, 3:42 am

magz wrote:
Not all opposition - only supporters of the occupation. Ukrainian political scene is otherwise pretty diverse.

This country is at a f*cking hot, WWII-like war. High treason is a very real thing there, costing thousands of lives.


Self-evident, I would have thought.
How can people not see this?


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


Pepe
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25 May 2022, 3:44 am

magz wrote:
You tell me, especially in the face of what happened next, that disclosing secret military data to Russia were not a treason?


Some people are simply talking nonsense and are grasping at "straws", imo. 8)


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


magz
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25 May 2022, 3:46 am

cyberdad wrote:
Is this a "canned response"?
It's a response to a post above yours.

To your post, I'd just response: the way we currently deal with dangerous dictators is isolation and arming their neighbours (who in exchange agree to some extent of "our" control).


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Pepe
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25 May 2022, 3:48 am

SpiceWolf wrote:
Tross wrote:
Interesting. I was not aware of that. Still, as magz said, none of that justifies one country invading another in this day and age. I'm sure "nazi" wannabes exist in the US, should Russia invade that? As for that second piece, I'll have to see more sources corroborating that info (which I'll make a point of looking up), but even if it's true, that still doesn't justify Russia moving in. They can't claim to be heroes stepping in to put an end to tragedy when they themselves cause even more of it, and on a much larger scale.


I didn't say it did, what I said was that Russia being bad, does not make Ukraine good and that adopting such a good vs evil mindset will do the average Ukrainian no favours. It will just make you delusional over time.

Putin isn't invading to denazify them, he wants their land for his own.
Just as America didn't invade Iraq to bring them apple pie, they were far more concerned with geostrategic oil access.

Adopting naive 'Goodies and Baddies' mindsets can lead to unfortunate outcomes, for example, all the weapons and money being sent to Ukraine, how much of that is ending up with the Nazi Generals? If Ukraine wins, do you think those Nazis will all disappear in a puff of
smoke, or will they perhaps say 'Their is no better time than now to seize the government!! ! !'

How does that help Ukraine(as in the common person in the street)?


I believe it has already been confirmed, in this thread or one similar, that the neonazis are a small subgroup.


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


Pepe
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25 May 2022, 3:50 am

magz wrote:
The swastika-tatooed guy is not any kind of a general.
Nationalists have negligible support and similarily negligible power in Ukraine. Exactly one seat in Verkhovna Rada, constantly diminishing since their peak in 2012.
There's no base for claims that Ukraine today is any more nazi than, say, Australia.

Western weapons make a world of difference for regular Ukrainians, especially for those in the occupied territories and for those in territories at risk of becoming occupied.

I really recommend the Timothy Snyder article.


This has already been covered.
I think some people have missed it.


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


Tross
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25 May 2022, 1:45 pm

SpiceWolf wrote:
Tross wrote:
Interesting. I was not aware of that. Still, as magz said, none of that justifies one country invading another in this day and age. I'm sure "nazi" wannabes exist in the US, should Russia invade that? As for that second piece, I'll have to see more sources corroborating that info (which I'll make a point of looking up), but even if it's true, that still doesn't justify Russia moving in. They can't claim to be heroes stepping in to put an end to tragedy when they themselves cause even more of it, and on a much larger scale.


I didn't say it did, what I said was that Russia being bad, does not make Ukraine good and that adopting such a good vs evil mindset will do the average Ukrainian no favours. It will just make you delusional over time.

Putin isn't invading to denazify them, he wants their land for his own.
Just as America didn't invade Iraq to bring them apple pie, they were far more concerned with geostrategic oil access.

Adopting naive 'Goodies and Baddies' mindsets can lead to unfortunate outcomes, for example, all the weapons and money being sent to Ukraine, how much of that is ending up with the Nazi Generals? If Ukraine wins, do you think those Nazis will all disappear in a puff of
smoke, or will they perhaps say 'Their is no better time than now to seize the government!! ! !'

How does that help Ukraine(as in the common person in the street)?
I guess there's no winning either way then. I think the more immediate threat is the one literally destroying Ukraine though. An entire nation has more power than a terrorist faction, so here's hoping the former is dealt with before too long, and the latter can be dealt with should the need arise.
Pepe wrote:
Tross wrote:
SpiceWolf wrote:
Tross wrote:
Normally, I like to see both sides of a conflict, but in this case, there really is only good and evil.


From your post I take it you consider Ukraine good and Russia evil.
Well this is a high ranking member of the Ukraine Military

https://i.redd.it/60o3yjcpb9n81.png

You just called this man 'Good'.
But the Nazis in Ukraine did not become 'good' simply because Russia attacked. They did not become nice, the moment Putin turned nasty. They will not be good afterwards.

Zelentsky taking the opportunity to wipe out all opposition parties and destroy all trace of Democracy in Ukraine(in the name of Fighting Russia) has, I fear, doomed that country, at least for a time.
https://thegrayzone.com/2022/04/17/trai ... pposition/

Wether it is doomed to one party Nazi rule, or one party Russian rule, will depend in the end, on which one of the two horrible alternatives wins.
Interesting. I was not aware of that. Still, as magz said, none of that justifies one country invading another in this day and age. I'm sure "nazi" wannabes exist in the US, should Russia invade that? As for that second piece, I'll have to see more sources corroborating that info (which I'll make a point of looking up), but even if it's true, that still doesn't justify Russia moving in. They can't claim to be heroes stepping in to put an end to tragedy when they themselves cause even more of it, and on a much larger scale.


From the article: "Ukraine’s SBU studies torture and assassination from the CIA."
My point: All countries use brutal tactics in times of war, except maybe Russia. <sarcasm>

I am a little confused.
During WWII, those who were engaging in treason were executed, and this would have happened no matter what country. The UK was known to be particularly brutal.

Ukraine is at war, and those who assist the enemy are committing treason, is this not the case?
Please educate me.
Very true, and I did a search on "is Zelenski torturing dissidents", and found this article again, but very few corroborating sources, one of which is actually the same guy who posted this article (he's got a fairly anti-Ukraine slanted Twitter account).

Still, if taken as truth, you are correct that any and all support for the Russian invasion by people in Ukraine is treason of the highest order. If we operate on the premise that Ukraine is 100% justified in doing what it needs to in order to protect its country and its people from the Russian invasion, I suppose we can turn a blind eye to the tactics of Ukraine's CIA.

Let's just hope the West doesn't get pulled into war with Russia, because at that point, any pro-Putin sentiment will be considered treasonous here. Personally, I don't think we should resort to torture or capital punishment. A simple deportation and revoking of citizenship should do. However, Ukraine is in the thick of it, and if they send these people to Russia they could be an asset to them. In their case, such individuals are a threat to their security and should be dealt with systematically.