Right wing Christians vs. Jesus's actual teachings

Page 1 of 3 [ 47 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,824
Location: New York City (Queens)

24 Jun 2022, 11:14 am

Here in the U.S.A., it seems that the more popular forms of Christianity are associated with right wing ideas on both economics and social issues.

But it can be argued that this is contrary to the actual teachings of Jesus.

Here is one of the more interesting refutations of the idea that Jesus would have endorsed today's American right-wingers: "Christians in the hand of an angry God," by J. Brad Hicks, in 5 parts:

- Part 1
- Part 2
- Part 3
- Part 4
- Part 5

Especially interesting is Part 4, on abortion.

I'll post some specific excerpts later.


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.
- My Twitter (new as of 2021)


klanka
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 31 Mar 2022
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,396
Location: Cardiff, Wales

24 Jun 2022, 11:53 am

I read the first one, I've been Christian for six years and met many church-going Christians. If we really were being held to the standard of : 'if you don't feed the hungry you're going to hell',
then heaven would have about 5 people in it.
In the gospel of Matthew, Jesus says there will be few people in heaven...but then in Revelation it says 'uncountable multitudes' so you know there must be something deeper to look into.

Its because the gospel of Matthew has the standard that Jesus himself had to reach. Only certain people can get that just from reading the bible, others like myself, have to have a spiritual revelation of the fact that we are relying on faith.

Paul says 'faith not works' which seems to contradict what Jesus is saying in the gospel of Matthew, but the gospel of Matthew is the impossible standard.

The blog author doesn't mention the existence of the gospel of John which says 'just believe' for salvation.


A preacher born in 1716 came to the same conclusion:

Quote:
Conversion
About Christmas 1757, Berridge began thinking that he might be preaching wrong doctrine. He was "musing upon a text of Scripture" when what seemed to him "like a voice from heaven" said, "Cease from thine own works." By this epiphany, he realized that his former belief that his salvation depended partly through his works, and "partly through Christ’s mercies" was wrong. Now he was assured that his salvation depended solely on Christ's mercies, to wit, that he was "justified by faith" and that "sanctification follows after justification".[14]

Berridge does not specify what text of Scripture on which he was musing, but it might well have been Hebrews 4:10 in conjunction with Matthew Poole’s Annotations Upon the Holy Bible (1700). Poole comments that "true Christians have ceased and rested from all their sinful works and labours,"[15]

Berridge's conversion was the third in his three stages of religious development that he wrote in the epitaph on his tomb, namely, "Fled to Jesus alone for refuge, 1756".[16]

Changed preaching

After his conversion to "the true way to salvation," Berridge began to preach it. As he wrote, during his eight years of preaching "sanctification," he "never brought one soul to Christ". But, now, people began to flock "from all parts to hear the glorious sound of the gospel.[17] People not only came to Everton to hear Berridge, by 1759 he itinerated in nearby villages "preaching effectively to country people in field and barn".[18] In his itinerant preaching, he covered the counties of Bedford, Cambridge, Essex, Hertford, and Huntingdon.[19]

Although Berridge sometimes preached in Whitefield's Tabernacle, Tottenham Court Road, London, for the most part he confined his preaching to "his own district" where he had "more than enough to do".[20]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Berridge



Twilightprincess
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Age: 38
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,864
Location: Small Town From Hell

24 Jun 2022, 2:49 pm

I think people struggle with deciding how much of the Bible they want to follow:

Jesus’ teachings?

The New Testament?

Parts of the Old Testament?

I must say that even Jesus said some unsavory stuff. Like telling that man not to mourn for his father and to follow him instead: “let the dead bury the dead” (Luke 9:60).

He also said: “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Matt. 19:24.)

He also was not very supportive of families:

For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household.37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it. —Matthew 10:35-39

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold, and will inherit eternal life. —Matthew 19:29


_________________
Away.


Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,824
Location: New York City (Queens)

24 Jun 2022, 2:55 pm

klanka wrote:
I read the first one, I've been Christian for six years and met many church-going Christians. If we really were being held to the standard of : 'if you don't feed the hungry you're going to hell',
then heaven would have about 5 people in it.

Really? Many more than 5 people have participated in charities and/or mutual aid groups that feed the hungry.

klanka wrote:
Paul says 'faith not works' which seems to contradict what Jesus is saying in the gospel of Matthew, but the gospel of Matthew is the impossible standard.

The blog author doesn't mention the existence of the gospel of John which says 'just believe' for salvation.

A preacher born in 1716 came to the same conclusion:
Quote:
Conversion
About Christmas 1757, Berridge began thinking that he might be preaching wrong doctrine. He was "musing upon a text of Scripture" when what seemed to him "like a voice from heaven" said, "Cease from thine own works." By this epiphany, he realized that his former belief that his salvation depended partly through his works, and "partly through Christ’s mercies" was wrong. Now he was assured that his salvation depended solely on Christ's mercies, to wit, that he was "justified by faith" and that "sanctification follows after justification".

But isn't the point of "sanctification" to make it easier to do good works, by becoming more and more the Christ-like kind of person who naturally desires to do good works, rather than struggling to do good works in order to be saved?


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.
- My Twitter (new as of 2021)


klanka
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 31 Mar 2022
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,396
Location: Cardiff, Wales

24 Jun 2022, 3:07 pm

Oh I actually mis-spoke, if just feeding the hungry was the qualification for heaven it wouldn't be so bad, but you would have to keep all the commandments in the gospel of Matthew,some of which twilight princess posted also the one from the gospel of Luke.
There are more harsh ones in there as well ;)

In answer to your second paragraph:
In my experience I was doing evangelism similar to how they did it in the Bible. This was 'works' because I didn't really enjoy it.
I was trying to be holy by not watching tv , YouTube or listening to non Christian music.
I would only read the Bible,evangelise and hang out with Christians.

After I had a similar revelation to Mr. Berridge above I expect to be able to preach or evangelize in a way I enjoy.

As far as good works go, that is confusing at the moment.But I assume I will know what to do later. Maybe any good works I do in the future will just fit in with what I want to do.

I've been relying on grace since December ,so it's still early days.



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 57,005
Location: Stendec

24 Jun 2022, 4:01 pm

klanka wrote:
Oh I actually mis-spoke, if just feeding the hungry was the qualification for heaven it wouldn't be so bad, but you would have to keep all the commandments in the gospel of Matthew. . .
Jesus gave only two Commandments:
Quote:
But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.  Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"

Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'   This is the first and great commandment.  And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'  On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." -- Matthew 22:34-40 (NIV)
Am I the only member of this website who actually reads the Bible?



klanka
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 31 Mar 2022
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,396
Location: Cardiff, Wales

24 Jun 2022, 4:43 pm

Fnord wrote:
klanka wrote:
Oh I actually mis-spoke, if just feeding the hungry was the qualification for heaven it wouldn't be so bad, but you would have to keep all the commandments in the gospel of Matthew. . .
Jesus gave only two Commandments:
Quote:
But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.  Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"

Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'   This is the first and great commandment.  And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'  On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." -- Matthew 22:34-40 (NIV)
Am I the only member of this website who actually reads the Bible?


If Jesus says in Matthew that neglecting the poor will lead to eternal damnation, that is basically a command or commandment. Whatever you want the word to be. So you're just disputing over technicalities in word meanings when everyone else knows what I'm talking about...ie you're just causing trouble for the sake of it :D



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 57,005
Location: Stendec

24 Jun 2022, 4:53 pm

klanka wrote:
If Jesus says in Matthew that neglecting the poor will lead to eternal damnation, that is basically a command or commandment. Whatever you want the word to be. So you're just disputing over technicalities in word meanings when everyone else knows what I'm talking about...ie you're just causing trouble for the sake of it
Wrong again!

A Commandment is a Commandment, while a statement of fact is only that: a statement of fact.

Read your Bible before you start an exegetical discussion with me.



Texasmoneyman300
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,686
Location: Texas

24 Jun 2022, 5:03 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Here in the U.S.A., it seems that the more popular forms of Christianity are associated with right wing ideas on both economics and social issues.

But it can be argued that this is contrary to the actual teachings of Jesus.

Here is one of the more interesting refutations of the idea that Jesus would have endorsed today's American right-wingers: "Christians in the hand of an angry God," by J. Brad Hicks, in 5 parts:

- Part 1
- Part 2
- Part 3
- Part 4
- Part 5

Especially interesting is Part 4, on abortion.

I'll post some specific excerpts later.

Ya I have never quite understood the dichotomy and cognitive dissonce of Christian who think ths at getting super rich wont put them in danger zone in terms of missing out on Heaven.Its especially remarkable at my church because the church of Christ prides itself on being just like the church in Acts but there's an inconvient truth about the early church in Acts because the early church in that book did not have private property it was proto-Communist.I studied the Communist Manifesto and I think Marx talked about how the early church community of goods played a role in coming up with his life work.

But then again wealth is a relative thing.I think all Americans could be in the danger zone because a dirt poor person in New Mexico is prolly super rich compared to say someone in India or Africa.I am working upon restoring the Christian Communism in the church of Christ..I dont know what the limits of grace are in terms of Christs teachings on wealth and money but I think someone worth 10 million has a much ber tter shot at living in Heaven than Elon Musk.I dont think I will ever get to the level of wealth where it would ever come into play because I dont think I will ever be worth a billion.
I dont think that Jesus intended for the church to support the poor who are not Christians.I hope we are not judged harshly for not giving 20 dollars cash to every panhandler on the street because they will most likely use it to support their bad habits like drugs.I also consider my taxes that go to welfare and charity to be my support for the poor.I also consider shopping to be giving to the poor because I am helping to put people to work.All examples of Christian benevolence in the church in Acts onward in the New Testament were to Christians not non-Chritians.The non-institutional church of Christ which I lean towards but I am not fully has never given charity on a large scale to non-Christians.It is against our doctrine of limited benevolence.Also my church forbids helping poor widows as a church if they did not meet the qualifications in Acts.I have no problem with private individual church of Christ people giving to the poor if they want to.However I would advise against it because a man should not be allowed to eat if he is not disabled but wont work due to laziness.



Last edited by Texasmoneyman300 on 24 Jun 2022, 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,824
Location: New York City (Queens)

24 Jun 2022, 5:06 pm

klanka wrote:
Oh I actually mis-spoke, if just feeding the hungry was the qualification for heaven it wouldn't be so bad, but you would have to keep all the commandments in the gospel of Matthew,some of which twilight princess posted also the one from the gospel of Luke.
There are more harsh ones in there as well ;)

So you don't think the most important issues are covered in Matthew 25:31-46, which, as Brad Hicks pointed out in Part 1 of "Christians in the hand of an angry God," is the account of Judgment Day by the One Whom Christians believe will be doing the judging?

Quote:
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.
- My Twitter (new as of 2021)


kitesandtrainsandcats
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2016
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,486
Location: Missouri

24 Jun 2022, 5:15 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
I must say that even Jesus said some unsavory stuff. Like telling that man not to mourn for his father and to follow him instead: “let the dead bury the dead” (Luke 9:60).


Ahh yes, the classic old thing of harp on the sound byte and screw the context.

There in 57 to 62 Jesus was responding to what, three people, in those several verses, 2 of whom after proclaiming they would follow him, and 1 he called to follow him, who then said what amounted to, "Yeah I'll follow You but I'm going to go do this other thing first because it is more important in my life than you are."


_________________
"There are a thousand things that can happen when you go light a rocket engine, and only one of them is good."
Tom Mueller of SpaceX, in Air and Space, Jan. 2011


klanka
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 31 Mar 2022
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,396
Location: Cardiff, Wales

24 Jun 2022, 5:35 pm

It is true that those verses are worded very strongly and seem to really indicate that we should be doing works like that.

I am on benefits myself, I used to take those verses very seriously and give away every penny of my money to itinerant Christian preachers, then I'd be in a bad mood for 2 weeks as I couldn't go food shopping. When I did give away my money I was struck with a bizarre mental illness thing which only went away when I stopped doing those types of things.
That was the spiritual revelation I was talking about , whenever I even think about trying to follow anything in Matthew,Mark or Luke it strikes. When I go back to living normally it goes away.

It has similarities to what happened to Mr.Berridge , the same ideology comes out from both of our experiences.

In the old testament Kind David was allowed to eat a loaf of ceremonial bread which the law of God said he couldnt eat..its was because he was in a tight spot, so allowances were made. In the law of God such allowances are not mentioned, but somehow it was just known at that time it wouldnt be a sin to eat the bread on that occasion.

So I think me trying to help others is silly as I'm poor. If I do amass wealth later I don't know what will happen then I would hope God would guide me on the right path.

It is confusing overall :lol: :lol: because the impossible standard of living in Matthew is worded so strongly!

Quote:
When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2 Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who make themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”


This is the most extreme one: Jesus seems to be advocating castration instead of marriage because the risk of going to hell.
Jesus was always upping the ante. So his disciples said it was better not to marry...but then Jesus upped the ante to castration...I think this is make people collapse and realise they cant live by their own righteousness.



kitesandtrainsandcats
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2016
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,486
Location: Missouri

24 Jun 2022, 5:50 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
He also was not very supportive of families:

For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household.37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it. —Matthew 10:35-39


That about supporting families is a mistaken conclusion.

A couple different things are being referenced there with none of them being Jesus' view on the value of families.

:arrow:
One being the Old Testament prophecy book of Micah, chapter 7,
https://biblehub.com/nkjv/micah/7.htm
"
Sorrow for Israel’s Sins

1Woe is me!
For I am like those who gather summer fruits,
Like those who glean vintage grapes;
There is no cluster to eat
Of the first-ripe fruit which my soul desires.
2The faithful[a] man has perished from the earth,
And there is no one upright among men.
They all lie in wait for blood;
Every man hunts his brother with a net.

3That they may successfully do evil with both hands—
The prince asks for gifts,
The judge seeks a bribe,
And the great man utters his evil desire;
So they scheme together.
4The best of them is like a brier;
The most upright is sharper than a thorn hedge;
The day of your watchman and your punishment comes;
Now shall be their perplexity.

5Do not trust in a friend;
Do not put your confidence in a companion;
Guard the doors of your mouth
From her who lies in your bosom.
6For son dishonors father,
Daughter rises against her mother,
Daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
A man’s enemies are the men of his own household.
7Therefore I will look to the Lord;
I will wait for the God of my salvation;
My God will hear me.

Israel’s Confession and Comfort

8Do not rejoice over me, my enemy;
When I fall, I will arise;
When I sit in darkness,
The Lord will be a light to me.
9I will bear the indignation of the Lord,
Because I have sinned against Him,
Until He pleads my case
And executes justice for me.
He will bring me forth to the light;
I will see His righteousness.
10Then she who is my enemy will see,
And shame will cover her who said to me,
“Where is the Lord your God?”
My eyes will see her;
Now she will be trampled down
Like mud in the streets.

11In the day when your walls are to be built,
In that day [b]the decree shall go far and wide.
12In that day they[c] shall come to you
From Assyria and the [d]fortified cities,
From the [e]fortress to [f]the River,
From sea to sea,
And mountain to mountain.
13Yet the land shall be desolate
Because of those who dwell in it,
And for the fruit of their deeds.

God Will Forgive Israel

14Shepherd Your people with Your staff,
The flock of Your heritage,
Who dwell [g]solitarily in a woodland,
In the midst of Carmel;
Let them feed in Bashan and Gilead,
As in days of old.

15“As in the days when you came out of the land of Egypt,
I will show [h]them wonders.”

16The nations shall see and be ashamed of all their might;
They shall put their hand over their mouth;
Their ears shall be deaf.
17They shall lick the dust like a serpent;
They shall crawl from their holes like [i]snakes of the earth.
They shall be afraid of the Lord our God,
And shall fear because of You.
18Who is a God like You,
Pardoning iniquity
And passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage?

He does not retain His anger forever,
Because He delights in mercy.[j]
19He will again have compassion on us,
And will subdue our iniquities.

You will cast all [k]our sins
Into the depths of the sea.
20You will give truth to Jacob
And [l]mercy to Abraham,
Which You have sworn to our fathers
From days of old.
"

and

:arrow:
Also referencing that not all family members are going to be on the same spiritual page, there will be those who actively work against family who follow Jesus Christ.
And it happens modern times.
It happens around the world.
It happens in small towns and big cities in the USA.

While not specifically mentioning division within family units, and being about places other then the US, these from the New York Times in 2021 and Alarabiya News in 2015 are worth reading,

Arrests, Beatings and Secret Prayers: Inside the Persecution of India’s Christians
By Jeffrey Gettleman and Suhasini Raj
Photographs by Atul Loke
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/22/worl ... acked.html

Middle Eastern Christians; death, exodus, betrayal and silence
Hisham Melhem
Published: 14 March ,2015: 12:00 AM GST Updated: 20 May ,2020: 02:55 PM GST
https://english.alarabiya.net/views/new ... d-silence-

Now we go to 2009 within a family here in the US, from ABC news,
Christian Teen Flees Home, Says She Fears Honor Killing by Muslim Father
Rifqa Bary says she fled her Ohio home fearing an honor killing.
By Sarah Netter
August 11, 2009, 1:29 PM
https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=8303567&page=1

:arrow:
Now, back to that bit in Matthew:
What is the setting? What is the context? Who is that being said to? What is the purpose of Jesus saying it?
:?:
Let's look back up the chain a few sentences,
https://biblehub.com/nkjv/matthew/10.htm

"
Sending Out the Twelve
5These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: ...
...
Persecutions Are Coming

16“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless[f] as doves. 17But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. 18You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

21“Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake.
...
"


_________________
"There are a thousand things that can happen when you go light a rocket engine, and only one of them is good."
Tom Mueller of SpaceX, in Air and Space, Jan. 2011


Last edited by kitesandtrainsandcats on 24 Jun 2022, 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Texasmoneyman300
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,686
Location: Texas

24 Jun 2022, 5:58 pm

klanka wrote:
It is true that those verses are worded very strongly and seem to really indicate that we should be doing works like that.

I am on benefits myself, I used to take those verses very seriously and give away every penny of my money to itinerant Christian preachers, then I'd be in a bad mood for 2 weeks as I couldn't go food shopping. When I did give away my money I was struck with a bizarre mental illness thing which only went away when I stopped doing those types of things.
That was the spiritual revelation I was talking about , whenever I even think about trying to follow anything in Matthew,Mark or Luke it strikes. When I go back to living normally it goes away.

It has similarities to what happened to Mr.Berridge , the same ideology comes out from both of our experiences.

In the old testament Kind David was allowed to eat a loaf of ceremonial bread which the law of God said he couldnt eat..its was because he was in a tight spot, so allowances were made. In the law of God such allowances are not mentioned, but somehow it was just known at that time it wouldnt be a sin to eat the bread on that occasion.

So I think me trying to help others is silly as I'm poor. If I do amass wealth later I don't know what will happen then I would hope God would guide me on the right path.

It is confusing overall :lol: :lol: because the impossible standard of living in Matthew is worded so strongly!

Quote:
When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2 Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who make themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”


This is the most extreme one: Jesus seems to be advocating castration instead of marriage because the risk of going to hell.
Jesus was always upping the ante. So his disciples said it was better not to marry...but then Jesus upped the ante to castration...I think this is make people collapse and realise they cant live by their own righteousness.

Well i think that giving all your money to the church would be the most faithful to the letter of the law way to be a Christian.Jesus told people to sell everything and give to the church/poor but nobody at my church has ever done that..I think only very extremely devout people decide to give everything to the church.Ironicallyh,My church left me on the street multiple times with nobody to turn to after decades of membership.So I am not going to give to a church that wont help me find shelter when I am homeless during the winter.



kitesandtrainsandcats
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2016
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,486
Location: Missouri

24 Jun 2022, 6:14 pm

Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
Well i think that giving all your money to the church would be the most faithful to the letter of the law way to be a Christian.Jesus told people to sell everything and give to the church/poor


Jesus did not direct everyone to give all their money - he told that to some specific people whose personal value and personal priority was all in their being someone who had money, as in his encounter with the rich young ruler who went away sad because he was very wealthy, for one example.

And Jesus sometimes spoke in the manner of, "Oh, you people think you can be perfect enough in and of yourselves, in your own will, in your own power? Okay then, let's see if you can be THIS perfect ..." in order to illustrate the point that we imperfect humans are totally incapable of being perfect, which is why we need the forgiveness and salvation Jesus offers.


_________________
"There are a thousand things that can happen when you go light a rocket engine, and only one of them is good."
Tom Mueller of SpaceX, in Air and Space, Jan. 2011


Twilightprincess
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Age: 38
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,864
Location: Small Town From Hell

24 Jun 2022, 6:21 pm

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
I must say that even Jesus said some unsavory stuff. Like telling that man not to mourn for his father and to follow him instead: “let the dead bury the dead” (Luke 9:60).


Ahh yes, the classic old thing of harp on the sound byte and screw the context.

There in 57 to 62 Jesus was responding to what, three people, in those several verses, 2 of whom after proclaiming they would follow him, and 1 he called to follow him, who then said what amounted to, "Yeah I'll follow You but I'm going to go do this other thing first because it is more important in my life than you are."


The context does not make it any better. People should be allowed to bury and mourn family members before joining a religious leader.


_________________
Away.