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Who killed Jesus? Some new ideas

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QFT
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20 Jun 2022, 4:48 pm

cyberdad wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
There was an historical Jesus of Nazareth, I believe, who pissed off a lot of people because he went against both the Roman and the local rabbinical authorities..


There are plenty of examples of popular religious leaders becoming deified throughout the world. Jesus the man was married to other mythical beings. The execution and resurrection of jesus is the story of the Egyptian Osiris getting killed by Seth and then resurrected. His birthday is the same as the Persian-Roman god born on 25th December and his mother Mary is associated with Isis/Ishtar the mother goddess and the time of his resurrection is associated with fertility and rebirth rituals associated rabbits and eggs.

If Jesus does come back a second time, he would be rather bemused at the industry created surrounding his name and his magical deeds.


As far as Christmas and Easter, you won't find them in the Bible. So you are right that they are pagan. But that doesn't disprove the Bible. It only disproves "traditions of men". The concept of criticizing "traditions of men" is very much the one Jesus promoted. In his time, the "traditions of men" were the rabbinic ones, so those are the ones he criticized. But if he were to come few centuries later, he would have criticized Christmas and Easter for those same reasons. Well, Martin Luther came and did "some" of the job for him, by getting rid of the majority of Catholic traditions. But he was so used to Christmas and Easter that he missed them.

As far as resurrection being present in pagan religions, thats because satan takes things from God and twists them. So satan knew Jesus would be resurrected (in Gospels demons even recotnized Jesus) and thats why satan invented fake deities that did the same.



Fnord
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20 Jun 2022, 4:52 pm

The writers of the Bible did not even give the correct value of Pi, so why should any educated person have any reason to believe the rest?



Last edited by Fnord on 20 Jun 2022, 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

QFT
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20 Jun 2022, 4:52 pm

The_Znof wrote:
one of the good things is that he [Luther] didnt intend to start a seperatist movement, but rather to clean up corruption in the existing church.


Yes he did. He claimed Catholic Pope was the antichrist. And he introduced "sola scriptula" means Bible alone -- without any use of Catholic church as a mediator.

However, during that one time I came to Lutheran church just out of curiosity, it seemed far too Catholic in flavor for my comfort zone. So I guess he was too used to some of the Catholic things that he didn't even notice they were Catholic. So in practice he didn't to a complete job of changing the religions, Baptists did it for him. But at least he introduced the concept.



QFT
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20 Jun 2022, 4:53 pm

Fnord wrote:
The writers of the Bible did not even give the correct value of Pi, so why should any educated person believe the rest?


I thought you were a Christian?

And where did they give a "wrong" value of Pi in the Bible?



The_Znof
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20 Jun 2022, 5:03 pm

QFT wrote:
The_Znof wrote:
one of the good things is that he [Luther] didnt intend to start a seperatist movement, but rather to clean up corruption in the existing church.


Yes he did. He claimed Catholic Pope was the antichrist. And he introduced "sola scriptula" means Bible alone -- without any use of Catholic church as a mediator.



at first I meant, when he got nowhere but throw in jail reforming the existing church he made his own.



Last edited by The_Znof on 20 Jun 2022, 5:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

QFT
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20 Jun 2022, 5:05 pm

The_Znof wrote:
QFT wrote:
The_Znof wrote:
one of the good things is that he [Luther] didnt intend to start a seperatist movement, but rather to clean up corruption in the existing church.


Yes he did. He claimed Catholic Pope was the antichrist. And he introduced "sola scriptula" means Bible alone -- without any use of Catholic church as a mediator.



at first I meant, when he got nowhere but throw in jail reforming the existing church he made his own.


Then this means his beliefs gradually changed over time. He started with thinking Catholic church is completely true. Then he was thinking it is mostly true but needed reform. And then he was finally thinking it is totally false. The way beliefs change in stages is only natural.



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20 Jun 2022, 5:05 pm

QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The writers of the Bible did not even give the correct value of Pi, so why should any educated person believe the rest?
I thought you were a Christian?
I am.  I also read the Bible.
QFT wrote:
And where did they give a "wrong" value of Pi in the Bible?
Furnishings of the Temple - 2 Chronicles 4:2 (NRSVUE)

"Then he made the molten sea; it was round, ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. A line of thirty cubits would encircle it completely."

Obviously, 30 cubits (circumference) divided by 10 cubits (diameter) equals 3.  Not "3-1/7", not "3.141926", and certainly not "3.1415926535897932384626433832795"; just "3" -- this is not the correct value for Pi.



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20 Jun 2022, 5:09 pm

Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The writers of the Bible did not even give the correct value of Pi, so why should any educated person believe the rest?
I thought you were a Christian?
I am. 


But you also said how can any educated person believe the rest of the Bible. So can you formulate your actual beliefs? You are a Christian yet you believe the Bible is wrong?

Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
And where did they give a "wrong" value of Pi in the Bible?
[color=black]Furnishings of the Temple - 2 Chronicles 4:2 (NRSVUE)

"Then he made the molten sea; it was round, ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. A line of thirty cubits would encircle it completely."

Obviously, 30 cubits (circumference) divided by 10 cubits (diameter) equals 3.  Not "3-1/7", not "3.141926", and certainly not "3.1415926535897932384626433832795"; just "3".


I remember, back when I was an atheist, I was arguing with a Rabbi about existence of God (it was a regular Jewish Rabbi who doesn't believe in Jesus as that is what my upbringing was). In any case, Rabbi told me that there is a certain table at a certain sinagoge that has two parts, and the total length of two parts together doesn't match the sum of its lengths. He said they have a ruler there so that anyone can check it for themselves. And he claimed it was a miracle.

So maybe what you see in that verse is a miracle too.



Last edited by QFT on 20 Jun 2022, 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The_Znof
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20 Jun 2022, 5:10 pm

Fnord, of all the weird stuff in the bible to get offended over you pick that? :jester:



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20 Jun 2022, 5:16 pm

QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The writers of the Bible did not even give the correct value of Pi, so why should any educated person believe the rest?
I thought you were a Christian?
I am.
But you also said how can any educated person believe the rest of the Bible.  So can you formulate your actual beliefs?  You are a Christian yet you believe the Bible is wrong?
It does not take a genius to see that the Bible is not written as a scientific or historical textbook.
QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
And where did they give a "wrong" value of Pi in the Bible?
Furnishings of the Temple - 2 Chronicles 4:2 (NRSVUE)

"Then he made the molten sea; it was round, ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. A line of thirty cubits would encircle it completely."

Obviously, 30 cubits (circumference) divided by 10 cubits (diameter) equals 3.  Not "3-1/7", not "3.141926", and certainly not "3.1415926535897932384626433832795"; just "3".
I remember, back when I was an atheist, I was arguing with a Rabbi about existence of God (it was a regular Jewish Rabbi who doesn't believe in Jesus as that is what my upbringing was). In any case, Rabbi told me that there is a certain table at a certain sinagoge that has two parts, and the total length of two parts together doesn't match the sum of its lengths. He said they have a ruler there so that anyone can check it for themselves. And he claimed it was a miracle.
Did you see this table?  Did you measure it?  Do you even have the name and location of the Synagogue?

QFT wrote:
Maybe what you see in that verse is a miracle too.
More likely, it was sloppy journalism or bad maths (maybe both).  Biblical miracles are stated as such in the Bible, or are stated as the works of God.  The "molten sea" was crafted by men, not by God, and no miraculous properties were ever attributed to it.

C'mon, man!  READ your Bible!



Last edited by Fnord on 20 Jun 2022, 5:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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20 Jun 2022, 5:17 pm

QFT wrote:
I remember, back when I was an atheist, I was arguing with a Rabbi about existence of God (it was a regular Jewish Rabbi who doesn't believe in Jesus as that is what my upbringing was). In any case, Rabbi told me that there is a certain table at a certain sinagoge that has two parts, and the total length of two parts together doesn't match the sum of its lengths. He said they have a ruler there so that anyone can check it for themselves. And he claimed it was a miracle.

So maybe what you see in that verse is a miracle too.

So, can I write some articles to claim that there is a miracle here, and then claim all the flaws be pointed out as another miracle?


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QFT
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20 Jun 2022, 5:26 pm

Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The writers of the Bible did not even give the correct value of Pi, so why should any educated person believe the rest?
I thought you were a Christian?
I am.
But you also said how can any educated person believe the rest of the Bible.  So can you formulate your actual beliefs?  You are a Christian yet you believe the Bible is wrong?
[color=black]It does not take a genius to see that the Bible is not written as a scientific or historical textbook.


So are you saying you believe the moral principles of the Bible just not its scientific accuracy? If so, what was the point of you presenting where the Bible is scientifically wrong? Usually the point of people presenting it is to say Bible is wrong overall and then go on to dismiss their moral principles. But that clearly wasn't your point, since you are a Christian yourself. What was your point then?

Again, can you simply formulate your actual beliefs. What parts of the Bible you believe in and what parts you don't, and to what extend?



QFT
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20 Jun 2022, 5:30 pm

Fnord wrote:
Did you see this table?  Did you measure it? 


I put it off and then never got around to it.

Fnord wrote:
Do you even have the name and location of the Synagogue?


That was 1993. I was in Moscow, Russia, and back then there was just one sinagoge for the entire city. So I assumed it was that one. I did the Bar Mitzva there few months prior to that conversation; but other than that one time I wasn't attending it.

However thinking back I realize that I probably assumed too much. Because the Rabbi in question was coming from America. He had perfect Russian, I guess he immigrated from Russia or something. So actually I don't know that the synagoge was the one in Russia, it could have been in America.

I still have his name though and I assume he is still alive, so I guess I could ask. I just need to find his contact information through my mother.



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20 Jun 2022, 5:33 pm

QFT wrote:
. . . what was the point of you presenting where the Bible is scientifically wrong?
To demonstrate, yet again, that you do not know the Bible as well as you want the rest of us to believe.

You did not know where this inaccuracy occurred (and there are many more besides), so you do not know your Bible.



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20 Jun 2022, 5:35 pm

The_Znof wrote:
Fnord, of all the weird stuff in the bible to get offended over you pick that?
I am only getting started.  Anyone who misquotes the Bible to suit his or her own purposes is fair game.



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20 Jun 2022, 5:38 pm

Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
. . . what was the point of you presenting where the Bible is scientifically wrong?
To demonstrate, yet again, that you do not know the Bible as well as you want the rest of us to believe.

You did not know where this inaccuracy occurred (and there are many more besides), so you do not know your Bible.


I haven't read the Old Testament but I read the New one. And yes I do plan to get around to reading Old Testament, I just keep putting it off because it is more historic and less conceptual so requires more focus.

But, back to your point. So you are a Christian, which means you do believe the Bible is true. But you are trying to pretend that you don't believe it, just to demonstrate my lack of knowledge? Is this what you are saying?