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IsabellaLinton
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25 Jun 2022, 11:42 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
CubsBullsBears wrote:
Just came across this article:

https://www.guttmacher.org/article/2022 ... overturned

In a majority of the states listed there’s no exceptions for rape or incest. That is massively f***ed up.


If they only made it legal in these circumstances, it still wouldn’t be good enough and would be pretty darn toxic because:

1. Rape often goes unreported (for a variety of reasons)

2. There are a host of other dire circumstances

3. Women should be able to choose what they do with their own bodies. Period.



4. Even when rape is reported, it's seldom believed or prosecuted. (See: Brett Kavanaugh).


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ironpony
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25 Jun 2022, 11:48 pm

Well if abortion is not allowed in some states, what if the women just say they are wanting to freeze their eggs instead, which is still legal? That way, they are not aborting the egg, but removing it and freezing it, not knowing that it's already fertilized. Would this be a loophole women can use and just go in wanting your eggs frozen rather than asking for an abortion? Loophole in the system, legally?



IsabellaLinton
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25 Jun 2022, 11:56 pm

Do you mean frozen embryos (fertilised) or frozen eggs (unfertilised)?

There's an issue with frozen embryos.
If a woman is doing IVF / IUI and the doctors harvest a lot of eggs, they don't know how many will fertilise in the dish.
They can't just take one egg at a time because it costs tens of thousands of dollars.
They usually take a few eggs.
Maybe one will fertilise.
Maybe they will all fertilise.
Then they have to see how many are viable and they implant the most viable in the mother.
This is why mothers who use assistive reproduction often have twins or multiples.

Most people won't risk implanting more than two since it's considered a high risk pregnancy.

The left-over embryos remain frozen.
There are legal challenges pertaining to which US state holds those frozen embryos.
Also, what will happen to them if the couple doesn't need them?
Will they be preserved forever, or destroyed?
Destroying them is akin to an abortion.

These were issues even before RvW was overturned.
Now it will be illegal to dispose of unused embryos.


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Sweetleaf
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26 Jun 2022, 12:01 am

ironpony wrote:
Well if abortion is not allowed in some states, what if the women just say they are wanting to freeze their eggs instead, which is still legal? That way, they are not aborting the egg, but removing it and freezing it, not knowing that it's already fertilized. Would this be a loophole women can use and just go in wanting your eggs frozen rather than asking for an abortion? Loophole in the system, legally?


More likely women in those states will just have to try their best to get to a state like Colorado that protects abortion rights. Idk though maybe clinics could like and say they are just 'freezing eggs' while still providing less publicized abortion services, that may be an idea.


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Sweetleaf
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26 Jun 2022, 12:03 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Do you mean frozen embryos (fertilised) or frozen eggs (unfertilised)?

There's an issue with frozen embryos.
If a woman is doing IVF / IUI and the doctors harvest a lot of eggs, they don't know how many will fertilise in the dish.
They can't just take one egg at a time because it costs tens of thousands of dollars.
They usually take a few eggs.
Maybe one will fertilise.
Maybe they will all fertilise.
Then they have to see how many are viable and they implant the most viable in the mother.
This is why mothers who use assistive reproduction often have twins or multiples.

Most people won't risk implanting more than two since it's considered a high risk pregnancy.

The left-over embryos remain frozen.
There are legal challenges pertaining to which US state holds those frozen embryos.
Also, what will happen to them if the couple doesn't need them?
Will they be preserved forever, or destroyed?
Destroying them is akin to an abortion.

These were issues even before RvW was overturned.
Now it will be illegal to dispose of unused embryos.

So how should they store them if they can never be disposed of...? :|


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ironpony
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26 Jun 2022, 12:04 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Do you mean frozen embryos (fertilised) or frozen eggs (unfertilised)?

There's an issue with frozen embryos.
If a woman is doing IVF / IUI and the doctors harvest a lot of eggs, they don't know how many will fertilise in the dish.
They can't just take one egg at a time because it costs tens of thousands of dollars.
They usually take a few eggs.
Maybe one will fertilise.
Maybe they will all fertilise.
Then they have to see how many are viable and they implant the most viable in the mother.
This is why mothers who use assistive reproduction often have twins or multiples.

Most people won't risk implanting more than two since it's considered a high risk pregnancy.

The left-over embryos remain frozen.
There are legal challenges pertaining to which US state holds those frozen embryos.
Also, what will happen to them if the couple doesn't need them?
Will they be preserved forever, or destroyed?
Destroying them is akin to an abortion.

These were issues even before RvW was overturned.
Now it will be illegal to dispose of unused embryos.


But either way, the eggs are removed and the women do not have to go through pregnancies they do not want. So what is the issue, of what happens with the eggs afterwards? The mothers want their pregnancies terminated and thus they are terminated by removing the eggs. So who cares what happens to the eggs afterward?



ironpony
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26 Jun 2022, 12:06 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
Do you mean frozen embryos (fertilised) or frozen eggs (unfertilised)?

There's an issue with frozen embryos.
If a woman is doing IVF / IUI and the doctors harvest a lot of eggs, they don't know how many will fertilise in the dish.
They can't just take one egg at a time because it costs tens of thousands of dollars.
They usually take a few eggs.
Maybe one will fertilise.
Maybe they will all fertilise.
Then they have to see how many are viable and they implant the most viable in the mother.
This is why mothers who use assistive reproduction often have twins or multiples.

Most people won't risk implanting more than two since it's considered a high risk pregnancy.

The left-over embryos remain frozen.
There are legal challenges pertaining to which US state holds those frozen embryos.
Also, what will happen to them if the couple doesn't need them?
Will they be preserved forever, or destroyed?
Destroying them is akin to an abortion.

These were issues even before RvW was overturned.
Now it will be illegal to dispose of unused embryos.

So how should they store them if they can never be disposed of...? :|


Well what do clinics do usually when they store eggs that cannot be disposed of? Who cares what they do with the eggs. The eggs are being removed from women who don't want them, isn't that satisfying enough? What do they care what happens to the eggs afterward, if they do not want the child?



IsabellaLinton
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26 Jun 2022, 12:14 am

Some couples donate them to other families but I can see how that's emotionally difficult.
You would be giving away your biological children.

It's expensive to keep them in proper facilities, even if you know you won't use them.
I recently saw a video about a couple that moved between states and had to transfer them.
It was extremely expensive to ensure they were legally / properly transported.

I guess now, if they perished in transit someone could be legally responsible for murder?


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ironpony
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26 Jun 2022, 12:17 am

I don't understand the emotional difference though? Why would women who would want an abortion but would get the eggs removed and frozen as a legal aternative, care what happened to the egg?

The egg would have died if it was an abortion, so why care if the child lives if the egg is frozen? What's the difference? If you don't care about the egg living from an abortion, why would you care if it lived from having the eggs removed and frozen, if you are using the procedure as an alternative to abortion?



IsabellaLinton
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26 Jun 2022, 12:22 am

ironpony wrote:
But either way, the eggs are removed and the women do not have to go through pregnancies they do not want. So what is the issue, of what happens with the eggs afterwards? The mothers want their pregnancies terminated and thus they are terminated by removing the eggs. So who cares what happens to the eggs afterward?


The issue is that they could be charged with murder if they don't pay to keep them in a dish forever.
The issue is that the government will be forcing this upon families who want to be loving parents.

There are couples out there who already have "leftover" frozen embryos.
They didn't know this would happen.

I don't know what you mean about "the mothers want their pregnancies terminated".
What does that mean?
These are mothers / couples who desperately want children and can't conceive naturally.

Removing "eggs" doesn't terminate a pregnancy.
Eggs aren't even fertilised.


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ironpony
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26 Jun 2022, 12:24 am

Oh sorry for the confusion. What I mean is, let's say a woman gets pregant and doesn't want to go through with the pregnancy, because abortion is illegal. Why not just say you want to get your eggs frozen instead, so they then remove the egg from you, even though the egg is already fertlized from sex before. Just don't tell them it's fertilized. They remove the egg, and you have now terminated your pregnancy using the egg freezing legal method, rather than the illegal abortion method.

That's what I meant.



IsabellaLinton
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26 Jun 2022, 12:28 am

ironpony wrote:
I don't understand the emotional difference though? Why would women who would want an abortion but would get the eggs removed and frozen as a legal aternative, care what happened to the egg?

The egg would have died if it was an abortion, so why care if the child lives if the egg is frozen? What's the difference? If you don't care about the egg living from an abortion, why would you care if it lived from having the eggs removed and frozen, if you are using the procedure as an alternative to abortion?


I'm sorry but I don't understand this.
You seem to mixing up two groups of women.

1)
Women who are pregnant and wish to terminate.

2)
Women who use assistive reproduction to become pregnant, and may have leftover embryos.

They are very rarely the same women unless:

3)
The woman who became pregnant via IVF / IUI with frozen embryos faces a health risk, or determines that the baby has a serious medical complication requiring termination.

or

4)
Doctors implant two or more frozen embryos into a mother, and they split (identical twins), meaning there are 4 or more babies growing. That poses a risk to the mother's life and compromises the survival rate of all the babies. In this case doctors determine which of the embryos is most healthy and remove the rest of them.

This is called a "selective reduction".


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Last edited by IsabellaLinton on 26 Jun 2022, 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

ironpony
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26 Jun 2022, 12:30 am

So what I mean is the first group of women. If they want to terminate a pregancy, why not just lie to doctors and say you want to get your eggs frozen. Don't tell them you are pregnant and don't tell them the eggs you have inside are fertilized. So they remove the eggs, not knowing they are fertlized and you have no terminated your pregancy.

Why don't women use this egg freezing route and defraud the system, as an alternative to abortion?



IsabellaLinton
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26 Jun 2022, 12:37 am

ironpony wrote:
So what I mean is the first group of women. If they want to terminate a pregancy, why not just lie to doctors and say you want to get your eggs frozen. Don't tell them you are pregnant and don't tell them the eggs you have inside are fertilized. So they remove the eggs, not knowing they are fertlized and you have no terminated your pregancy.

Why don't women use this egg freezing route and defraud the system, as an alternative to abortion?


Uhhhh ... because you can't lie to doctors?

When you go for a termination or an egg retrieval you have through blood tests and hormonal tests?
These tests would show the doctors that you are already pregnant.
Women can barely have any medical procedures without doctors testing for pregnancy.

Retrieving and freezing eggs is extremely complicated and it takes months of hormone injections, imaging scans, and other tests to prepare the body for ovulation and safe collection. Retrieval itself is done on ultrasound and they would see the baby.

Doctors would know if they are removing an egg or a baby.

I honestly don't understand what you're even asking.


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ironpony
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26 Jun 2022, 12:40 am

Well I was trying to suggest another way to get the eggs out, but if the doctors are going can test to see if the eggs are already fertilized beforehand and will do that, then I guess my idea won't work. I was just spitballing, I tried :(



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26 Jun 2022, 1:22 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
CubsBullsBears wrote:
Just came across this article:

https://www.guttmacher.org/article/2022 ... overturned

In a majority of the states listed there’s no exceptions for rape or incest. That is massively f***ed up.


If they only made it legal in these circumstances, it still wouldn’t be good enough and would be pretty darn toxic because:

1. Rape often goes unreported (for a variety of reasons)

2. There are a host of other dire circumstances

3. Women should be able to choose what they do with their own bodies. Period.
I get it. There are lots of reasons to get abortions.

What I had said there had nothing to do with the pro-life thoughts I have had before and would be something pro choice people should agree with, and you are still having an attitude towards me(you saying “period.” At the end of a statement feels harsh, especially since you had called me judgemental earlier).

This learning process on why people are so in favor of abortions has been more difficult than it needs to be because too many people want to make me feel terrible about myself and have me see insulting memes than just talk it out.


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