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IsabellaLinton
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29 Jun 2022, 10:04 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Even in the worst days of illegal abortion in NY State, a person who performed her own abortion could be sentenced to a maximum of 3 months in jail.

Nowadays, it’s only a crime if the fetus aborted has been growing inside the mother for 24 weeks or more.

In present-day Louisiana, a doctor who performs an abortion could be sentenced to 15 years in prison.


Do they mean 24 weeks from ovulation or conception?
There's a big difference which could affect some mothers.
It's also difficult to determine DPO in early pregnancy, let alone the conception date.


Conditions like Trisomy and Hydrops don't appear until around 24 weeks, and they're terminal.

With my daughter I haemorrhaged at 30 weeks and needed life saving measures.
There's also evidence she had a twin that I lost around six weeks.



kraftiekortie
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29 Jun 2022, 10:05 am

24 weeks from conception. Of course, "conception" can't be precisely determined.

If abortion is medically necessary, it is not a crime.



IsabellaLinton
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29 Jun 2022, 10:11 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
24 weeks from conception. Of course, "conception" can't be precisely determined.

If abortion is medically necessary, it is not a crime.



So then it's 26 weeks gestation?
That's right before the third trimester.



kraftiekortie
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29 Jun 2022, 10:16 am

I believe it's 24 weeks from one's last menstrual period. It's just before the beginning of the third trimester.

In most states, third-trimester abortion is illegal.



Fnord
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29 Jun 2022, 10:19 am

Is anyone going to look it up?



IsabellaLinton
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29 Jun 2022, 10:21 am

OK, that would suggest the baby is 21-22 weeks of gestation.
Depending on the length of a woman's cycle, ovulation and the window of fertility can be past 14 days.

They do foetal measurements to determine gestational age rather than citing LMP.
Some people don't even remember the date of their LMP.



kraftiekortie
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29 Jun 2022, 10:22 am

Determining Gestational Age

Parents do not always know when conception occurred. Healthcare providers can determine weeks of gestation by looking at the mother's menstrual cycle and with the use of ultrasounds. Gestational age is calculated from the first day of the pregnant person's last menstrual period (LMP) to the present day.1

(Technically, gestational age includes the two weeks prior to conception, before the person is pregnant.)

Calendar calculations based on the last menstrual period assume the pregnant person has a regular 28-day cycle. Because that is often not the case, fetal ultrasounds help to provide more information to inform gestational age. In fact, first trimester ultrasounds of the embryo or fetus (up to and including 13 6/7 weeks of gestation) are the most accurate way to determine gestational age.

In the first trimester, ultrasound measures the length from the top of the head to the bottom of the baby's buttocks. This is the crown-rump length or CRL. In later stages of pregnancy, ultrasounds measure specific parts of the baby's body including the abdomen, head, and femur (thigh bone) to confirm gestational age and fetal growth.

Source: verywellfamily.com



IsabellaLinton
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29 Jun 2022, 10:26 am

Perfect. ^
That's what I was trying to explain.

Some babies experience Intrauterine Growth Restriction and they measure very small for their presumed age.
I think their age is determined by frequent scans including the date of the earliest proof of pregnancy.

All of these scans and tests cost money.
I'm not sure how young girls and women pay for them if they don't have full medical insurance.
If those scans are tracked for evidence of crime, as some suggest they will be, they won't even happen.



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29 Jun 2022, 10:56 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
ironpony wrote:
I was just wondering how if women were prosecuted for murder, how would the evidence be legally collected.


We've already answered that.

Medical records.
Perhaps also an investigation of the home or surrounding areas, depending where it took place.


But since medical records cannot be looked at under the fourth amendment normally, what type of PRIOR evidence would be needed to get a warrant to look at them?



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29 Jun 2022, 11:02 am

ironpony wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
ironpony wrote:
I was just wondering how if women were prosecuted for murder, how would the evidence be legally collected.
We've already answered that. Medical records. Perhaps also an investigation of the home or surrounding areas, depending where it took place.
But since medical records cannot be looked at under the fourth amendment normally, what type of PRIOR evidence would be needed to get a warrant to look at them?
A woman who tells others she had a miscarriage.  A woman who goes to an "Abortion Sanctuary State" for a few days.  A woman who is normally observed purchasing feminine hygiene products every month, skips a month, and then resumes her purchases.  An app used by a woman to track her monthly cycles reveals that she "skipped" one or two cycles and then resumed them shortly thereafter.  A woman who is seen going into or coming out of a "Planned Parenthood" facility.



Last edited by Fnord on 29 Jun 2022, 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

IsabellaLinton
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29 Jun 2022, 11:03 am

Medical records can always be examined.

They're only confidential unless there is suspicion of criminal risk for the patient or another person.
If there's sufficient reason to believe a patient is homocidal / suicidal, their records can be subpoenaed.

That doesn't mean police can look inside a woman's "uterus area" with a search warrant.



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29 Jun 2022, 11:05 am

Fnord wrote:
ironpony wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
ironpony wrote:
I was just wondering how if women were prosecuted for murder, how would the evidence be legally collected.
We've already answered that. Medical records. Perhaps also an investigation of the home or surrounding areas, depending where it took place.
But since medical records cannot be looked at under the fourth amendment normally, what type of PRIOR evidence would be needed to get a warrant to look at them?
A woman who tells others she had a miscarriage.  A woman who goes to an "Abortion Sanctuary State" for a few days.  A woman who is normally observed purchasing feminine hygiene products every month, skips a month, and then resumes her purchases.  An app used by a woman to track her monthly cycles reveals that she "skipped" one or two cycles and then resumed them shortly thereafter.  A woman who is seen going into or coming out of a "Planned Parenthood" facility.


But I don't think that saying miscarriage is enough to get search warrants though compared to what is needed in other murder cases. But I can research it more. Are there any websites that talk about the just saying that being enough of an article to get a warrant?



Fnord
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29 Jun 2022, 11:15 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Medical records can always be examined.

They're only confidential unless there is suspicion of injury to the patient or another person.  If there's sufficient reason to believe a patient is homocidal / suicidal, their records can be subpoenaed.

That doesn't mean police can look inside a woman's "uterus area" with a search warrant.
Let us hope that there are no "Christian Sharia Laws" passed in the future that would legalize testing for virginity . . .

"Your honor, not only is the defendant not a virgin, but our examinations revealed she has also had an abortion!"



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29 Jun 2022, 11:26 am

ironpony wrote:
I don't think that saying miscarriage is enough to get search warrants though compared to what is needed in other murder cases.
Some women in my college psych courses discussed what they would consider an attempt to cover up an abortion. . .

• "I had a miscarriage."

• "I had a D&C done."

• "I took a short vacation . . . in another state."

Imagine living in a state where the law allows for a $10,000 cash bounty awarded to individuals who sue those involved in performing abortions, and overhearing a woman saying something like that.  Imagine being someone who could really use $10,000 . . .



IsabellaLinton
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29 Jun 2022, 11:46 am

ironpony wrote:

But I don't think that saying miscarriage is enough to get search warrants though compared to what is needed in other murder cases. But I can research it more. Are there any websites that talk about the just saying that being enough of an article to get a warrant?


- evidence of a crime or loss
- blood evidence / towels
- going to a doctor for postpartum care
- the discovery of a foetus or placenta
- partners turning in mothers
- church groups or pro-life stalkers
- nosy neighbours
- teachers who have to report
- travel history prior to loss
- apps
- doctors bound by duty to report
- prescription medication history
- failure to attend prenatal appt
- the baby never being born :roll:



Fnord
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29 Jun 2022, 11:50 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
ironpony wrote:

But I don't think that saying miscarriage is enough to get search warrants though compared to what is needed in other murder cases. But I can research it more. Are there any websites that talk about the just saying that being enough of an article to get a warrant?


- evidence of a crime or loss
- blood evidence / towels
- going to a doctor for postpartum care
- the discovery of a foetus or placenta
- partners turning in mothers
- church groups or pro-life stalkers
- nosy neighbours
- teachers who have to report
- travel history prior to loss
- apps
- doctors bound by duty to report
- prescription medication history
- failure to attend prenatal appt
- the baby never being born
- trash collectors
- rest-room attendants/cleaners