Separation Of Church and State takes a big hit

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Fnord
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29 Jun 2022, 10:18 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
The fact is that he was leading children in prayer. That’s not okay.
The fact is that those children voluntarily joined him in prayer, which IS okay.



Twilightprincess
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29 Jun 2022, 10:19 am

Yeah, a coach leading children in prayer would not feel at all coercive to the other children who were present. It’s all in their minds. :roll:


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kraftiekortie
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29 Jun 2022, 10:19 am

As long as the children who voluntarily joined the coach in prayer-----do not abuse those children who did not join the coach in prayer.

It is plainly obvious, commonsensically, that this sort of thing could very easily happen.



Last edited by kraftiekortie on 29 Jun 2022, 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

Twilightprincess
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29 Jun 2022, 10:20 am

Fnord wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
The fact is that he was leading children in prayer. That’s not okay.
The fact is that those children voluntarily joined him in prayer, which IS okay.


It’s not appropriate to pray with children at school because then it looks like the school is endorsing that particular brand of religion.


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Fnord
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29 Jun 2022, 10:21 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
The fact is that he was leading children in prayer. That’s not okay.
The fact is that those children voluntarily joined him in prayer, which IS okay.
It’s not appropriate to pray with children at school.
Why?

Was he leading them in a Satanic ritual that required blood sacrifice?  Was he arming them with AK-47s?  Were they engaging in lewd sex acts?

No, no, and no.  They were quietly and peacefully praying.  Nothing more.



Last edited by Fnord on 29 Jun 2022, 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

Twilightprincess
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29 Jun 2022, 10:22 am

Fnord wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
The fact is that he was leading children in prayer. That’s not okay.
The fact is that those children voluntarily joined him in prayer, which IS okay.
It’s not appropriate to pray with children at school.
Why?


Separation of church and state. Schools should not be advocating any religion. Parents of different faiths may feel uncomfortable with it. There are myriads of reasons here.


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kraftiekortie
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29 Jun 2022, 10:24 am

Yep.....Separation of church and state is one of the main bases for the foundation of this country.



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29 Jun 2022, 10:27 am

Fnord wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
The fact is that he was leading children in prayer. That’s not okay.
The fact is that those children voluntarily joined him in prayer, which IS okay.
It’s not appropriate to pray with children at school.
Why?

Was he leading them in a Satanic ritual that required blood sacrifice?  Was he arming them with AK-47s?  Were they engaging in lewd sex acts?

No, no, and no.  They were quietly and peacefully praying.  Nothing more.


Praying is a religious practice. It’s not appropriate for public schools. If teachers and students want to pray, they can do so silently and to themselves, but it’s inappropriate for teachers to lead students in prayer. Teachers’ role is to teach, so leading students in prayer could be thought of as teaching. It’s extremely problematic and quite potentially coercive for these and other reasons.


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Fnord
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29 Jun 2022, 10:29 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
The fact is that he was leading children in prayer. That’s not okay.
The fact is that those children voluntarily joined him in prayer, which IS okay.
It’s not appropriate to pray with children at school.
Why?


Separation of church and state. Schools should not be advocating any religion. Parents of different faiths may feel uncomfortable with it. There are myriads of reasons here.
"Separation of Church and State" does not mean what you think it means.

It means only that a public employee cannot impose his or her religion upon others.  No one was being imposed upon.

Some people simply cannot stand the idea that others are legally able to publicly acknowledge a higher power than themselves.

In fact, it seems the only imposition being made in this case comes from those observers who want to impose their religious beliefs upon the coach and the players.



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29 Jun 2022, 10:33 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
Praying is a religious practice. It’s not appropriate for public schools. If teachers and students want to pray, they can do so silently and to themselves, but it’s inappropriate for teachers to lead students in prayer. Teachers’ role is to teach, so leading students in prayer could be thought of as teaching. It’s extremely problematic and quite potentially coercive for these and other reasons.
So you want to impose YOUR religious beliefs upon others.  Why is that?



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29 Jun 2022, 10:35 am

In the case of the coach praying at midfield with the kids who wanted to join him......it could lead to all sorts of negative things, all involving the denial of rights to those who did not pray with the coach at midfield.

The kids who did not join the coach, quite likely, will be ostracized, bullied, or other subjected to other negative attention from the kids who joined the coach in prayer. That's just common sense.

I am glad there is not an official religion in the United States. And I am glad there is not an official language in the United States.



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29 Jun 2022, 10:37 am

If a coach leads his underage students in prayer, he is imposing his religion on them unless they all, miraculously, have the same faith. This, obviously, was not the case based on one student’s comment.

Like I said, no one is saying that these people can’t pray [misrepresenting the opponent’s’ argument?] , but they should do so silently and to themselves. This wouldn’t be an imposition on anyone.


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Twilightprincess
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29 Jun 2022, 10:38 am

Fnord wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
Praying is a religious practice. It’s not appropriate for public schools. If teachers and students want to pray, they can do so silently and to themselves, but it’s inappropriate for teachers to lead students in prayer. Teachers’ role is to teach, so leading students in prayer could be thought of as teaching. It’s extremely problematic and quite potentially coercive for these and other reasons.
So you want to impose YOUR religious beliefs upon others.  Why is that?


I never said that they can’t pray silently and to themselves.

I do not think that public schools are the place for religious indoctrination.

I do not have religious beliefs. What does that have to do with this discussion? Red herring or ad hominem? I can’t decide.


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29 Jun 2022, 10:47 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
I do not have religious beliefs.
You believe that religion should be kept out of sight -- that IS a religious belief, whether or not you profess a religion.



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29 Jun 2022, 10:51 am

Fnord wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
I do not have religious beliefs.
You believe that religion should be kept out of sight -- that IS a religious belief, whether or not you profess a religion.


I believe that it should be kept out of public schools. [Misrepresenting my position again.]


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Fnord
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29 Jun 2022, 10:55 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
I do not have religious beliefs.
You believe that religion should be kept out of sight -- that IS a religious belief, whether or not you profess a religion.
I believe that it should be kept out of public schools.
Correction noted.  You believe that religion should be kept out of public schools, away from public school students, and outside of public school events.

Yours is still a religious belief, however, and imposing it upon someone engaged in the peaceful and legal demonstration of that faith would be wrong.

See someone praying on school grounds?  See others voluntarily join in?  Let them pray.  They harm no one, includuing you.