Separation Of Church and State takes a big hit

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Twilightprincess
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29 Jun 2022, 11:00 am

Fnord wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
I do not have religious beliefs.
You believe that religion should be kept out of sight -- that IS a religious belief, whether or not you profess a religion.
I believe that it should be kept out of public schools.
Correction noted.  You believe that religion should be kept away from public schools, public school students, and public school events.

Yours is still a religious belief, however, and imposing it upon someone engaged in the peaceful and legal demonstration of that faith would be wrong.

See someone praying on school grounds?  See others voluntarily join in?  Let them pray.  They harm no one, includuing you.


I do not have religious beliefs


Teachers aren’t just “someone.” They are authority figures in the school system hierarchy. They should not be leading students in prayer. It is an imposition which I would report.


I’m pretty certain that these poor, persecuted individuals have other means of practicing their faith which wouldn’t impose on other people.


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Twilightprincess
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29 Jun 2022, 11:07 am

I would probably say that students can pray publicly, if they want to, although teachers should watch out for bullying behavior, as they always should.

Teachers should never be giving religious instruction, though, which would include leading students in prayer. Any activity that a teacher does with his or her students is viewed as instruction, as virtually every education class points out.


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Last edited by Twilightprincess on 29 Jun 2022, 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

SpiralingCrow
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29 Jun 2022, 11:18 am

Fnord wrote:
I do not get it.  Prayer has always been allowed in public schools, as long as it was was not forced or coerced by a public employee, or sanctioned by the school district.

AFAIK, no child has ever been arrested for praying for a record snowfall on exam day.


There was no prayer in any of my public school. My mom had a bad experience in parochial school, so she specifically vowed to send us to public school to keep religion out of our education.

Saying a silent prayer in one's head is not an issue. But, as was said in the article, one child felt he had to partcipate for fear of getting less play time. Public school is meant for all. No one should feel marginalized over religion or lack there of.



Fnord
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29 Jun 2022, 11:30 am

SpiralingCrow wrote:
. . . one child felt he had to participate for fear of getting less play time. . .
While it is likely that one child let his own unfounded fear of missing out influence his decisions, it is also equally likely that he had some legitimate fears of not getting to play at all, and saw his opportunity to "get in good" with the coach.



Fnord
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29 Jun 2022, 11:36 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
Teachers . . . are authority figures in the school system hierarchy. They should not be leading students in prayer. It is an imposition which I would report.
Again, the coach imposed nothing on anybody.  Those who joined him in prayer did so of their own free will.  Those who felt they had to join in or risk not getting to play were simply wrong.  Persecuting the coach for legally practicing his religious beliefs is also wrong.  Claiming that the sight of a public employee practicing his religion is an imposition is certainly wrong.



Last edited by Fnord on 29 Jun 2022, 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

SpiralingCrow
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29 Jun 2022, 11:42 am

Fnord wrote:
"Separation of Church and State" does not mean what you think it means.

It means only that a public employee cannot impose his or her religion upon others.  No one was being imposed upon.

Some people simply cannot stand the idea that others are legally able to publicly acknowledge a higher power than themselves.

In fact, it seems the only imposition being made in this case comes from those observers who want to impose their religious beliefs upon the coach and the players.[/color]


Actually, public school teachers are actually state public employees. Most schools have policies regarding what appropriate and not. The school felt he was not acting in accordance with it's policy.

People who send their children to public school do not expect their children to engage in prayer either in school or during school sponsored extra curricular activities. I would have been one of those angry parents in this case.



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29 Jun 2022, 11:46 am

SpiralingCrow wrote:
Fnord wrote:
"Separation of Church and State" does not mean what you think it means.

It means only that a public employee cannot impose his or her religion upon others.  No one was being imposed upon.

Some people simply cannot stand the idea that others are legally able to publicly acknowledge a higher power than themselves.

In fact, it seems the only imposition being made in this case comes from those observers who want to impose their religious beliefs upon the coach and the players.[/color]
Actually, public school teachers are actually state public employees. Most schools have policies regarding what appropriate and not. The school felt he was not acting in accordance with it's policy.

People who send their children to public school do not expect their children to engage in prayer either in school or during school sponsored extra curricular activities. I would have been one of those angry parents in this case.
I would have been angry only if the coach had ordered my child to participate as a condition of getting to play.  Since this did not happen in the real instance being cited, there should be no such problem.

If he violated the policies of his employer, then it is up to his employer to determine the outcome, not a bunch of sideliners crying about a non-existent "imposition".



SpiralingCrow
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29 Jun 2022, 11:50 am

Fnord wrote:
SpiralingCrow wrote:
. . . one child felt he had to participate for fear of getting less play time. . .
While it is likely that one child let his own unfounded fear of missing out influence his decisions, it is also equally likely that he had some legitimate fears of not getting to play at all, and saw his opportunity to "get in good" with the coach.


These are impressionable young people. They often go along with the crowd for fear of being ostracized by their peers. The most important thing to them is trying to fit in. Why is it so hard to believe this kid could have felt pressured into it?



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29 Jun 2022, 11:51 am

SpiralingCrow wrote:
Fnord wrote:
SpiralingCrow wrote:
. . . one child felt he had to participate for fear of getting less play time. . .
While it is likely that one child let his own unfounded fear of missing out influence his decisions, it is also equally likely that he had some legitimate fears of not getting to play at all, and saw his opportunity to "get in good" with the coach.
These are impressionable young people. They often go along with the crowd for fear of being ostracized by their peers. The most important thing to them is trying to fit in. Why is it so hard to believe this kid could have felt pressured into it?
Oh, I believe he was "pressured" into participation; but also that the "pressure" was self-generated, and not the fault of the coach.



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29 Jun 2022, 12:13 pm

Suppose the kid is Muslim, or Jewish.....or an atheist?

There is too much of this sense in the US that Christianity is the "one, true" religion, and that not believing in Jesus (as Savior) is something which is somehow incomprehensible. How can one NOT believe in Jesus as Savior?



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29 Jun 2022, 12:19 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Suppose the kid is Muslim, or Jewish.....or an atheist?
What is it about "making one's own choices" that some people simply cannot comprehend?

If a non-Christian kids chooses to join in a Christian prayer group, then that is his/her choice!

Get it?


:roll:



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29 Jun 2022, 12:21 pm

I was alluding to a kid NOT wanting to join the prayer group.....if the kid wants to join in, fine. I'd have no objection to that. If it's truly of his/her own volition.

Hopefully, some sort of peer pressure....or any sort of pressure....was not applied to the kid to join in. If the pressure was merely "within him/her," then it's not for me to judge.

I'm not a religious person----but I don't believe in actively criticizing religion in general. People have the right to be religious, and they have the right not to be religious. I'm critical of some manifestations of religion which could serve no-so-noble objectives. And which serve to enslave people in a cult, specifically. And misinterpretations of some scripture or other which perpetuates things like racism and the need to consider other religions to be worthy of scorn (or much more than scorn).



Last edited by kraftiekortie on 29 Jun 2022, 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SpiralingCrow
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29 Jun 2022, 12:31 pm

Fnord wrote:
SpiralingCrow wrote:
Fnord wrote:
SpiralingCrow wrote:
. . . one child felt he had to participate for fear of getting less play time. . .
While it is likely that one child let his own unfounded fear of missing out influence his decisions, it is also equally likely that he had some legitimate fears of not getting to play at all, and saw his opportunity to "get in good" with the coach.
These are impressionable young people. They often go along with the crowd for fear of being ostracized by their peers. The most important thing to them is trying to fit in. Why is it so hard to believe this kid could have felt pressured into it?
Oh, I believe he was "pressured" into participation; but also that the "pressure" was self-generated, and not the fault of the coach.


You can't know that. This coach was working with children, the most innocent, impressionable part of the population. I'm not saying he had some diabolical scheme to pressure these kids into practicing his religion. But, he is an authority figure who has sway and influence, for good or bad. The kids look up to him and may do things out of character to impress him. Considering this took place at a public school event by a public school employee, it was inappropriate and against school policy. Public schools and sponsored events should not be religious or anti-religious. They should be neutral, because they are for everyone.



Fnord
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29 Jun 2022, 2:25 pm

SpiralingCrow wrote:
Fnord wrote:
SpiralingCrow wrote:
Fnord wrote:
SpiralingCrow wrote:
. . . one child felt he had to participate for fear of getting less play time. . .
While it is likely that one child let his own unfounded fear of missing out influence his decisions, it is also equally likely that he had some legitimate fears of not getting to play at all, and saw his opportunity to "get in good" with the coach.
These are impressionable young people. They often go along with the crowd for fear of being ostracized by their peers. The most important thing to them is trying to fit in. Why is it so hard to believe this kid could have felt pressured into it?
Oh, I believe he was "pressured" into participation; but also that the "pressure" was self-generated, and not the fault of the coach.
You can't know that.
Read the articles.  Nowhere does it say that the coach expressed or implied that participation would lead to favoritism.  If I am wrong, please correct me, and cite the exact wording of the article in question.
SpiralingCrow wrote:
This coach was working with children, the most innocent, impressionable part of the population. I'm not saying he had some diabolical scheme to pressure these kids into practicing his religion. But, he is an authority figure who has sway and influence, for good or bad. The kids look up to him and may do things out of character to impress him.
Kids look up to authority figures and may CHOOSE to do things out of character to impress them.  Joining the coach for after-game prayer is as much a free choice for the players as it was for the coach.
SpiralingCrow wrote:
Considering this took place at a public school event by a public school employee, it was inappropriate and against school policy.
So let the school deal with it.
SpiralingCrow wrote:
Public schools and sponsored events should not be religious or anti-religious. They should be neutral, because they are for everyone.
The prayer occurred after the game was over and outside of regular school hours.

Sheesh!  It is as if you people believe the coach held High Mass during science class!  Nothing could be further from the truth!

Some non-religious people can be just as unreasonable when they see people holding prayer circles as some religious people can be unreasonable when seeing gay couples holding hands.


:roll:



Twilightprincess
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29 Jun 2022, 3:58 pm

Fnord wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
Teachers . . . are authority figures in the school system hierarchy. They should not be leading students in prayer. It is an imposition which I would report.
Claiming that the sight of a public employee practicing his religion is an imposition is certainly wrong.


This is once again misrepresenting my position. Teachers, unless they are in parochial schools, should not be leading kids in prayer.


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Twilightprincess
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29 Jun 2022, 4:00 pm

“The prayer occurred after the game was over and outside of regular school hours.”

We’re still talking about a public school event.


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