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Mona Pereth
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15 Sep 2022, 11:49 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
I am quite aware the conservatives not only do cancelling but have been doing it long before woke people were born. I started a thread about that. I had social media in mind when I wrote in the OP “ It was the conservatives that wrote the book. All the wokes have done is written the updated edition.” As I wrote a few posts down “ The wokes have just expanded upon what some of the conservatives did in part because they have the technology to do it. You could not just google and find out somebody did something you do not like 100 years ago. Everything tweet of yours was not recorded for some offense archeologist to dig up.”

While not limited to leftists to be you need to be into both canceling and presentism to be woke. There are leftists that agree with Critical Race theory but don’t agree with canceling or judging historical figures by solely by the current expanded definition of racism.

As far as I can tell, most right wingers, when using the word "woke" as an insult, don't limit it to people who are "into both canceling and presentism." Rather they use it as an insult against leftists in general, especially regarding social and cultural issues that have become prominent within the past 10 to 15 years or so.

Also, in general, I think it's hard to nail down a precise definition for a term whose primary usage today is sarcastic, rather than literal, in the first place. I suspect that this is also the main reason why QFT finds the term "woke" so confusing.

A few years ago, I had similar objections to the term "social justice warrior" -- which, like "woke" today, was another sarcastic term commonly used by right wingers to refer to leftists in general (especially regarding social and cultural issues), but was used by moderates like yourself to refer only to the fire-breathing fanatics.

If you are trying to make nuanced political distinctions -- especially in a forum for autistic people -- I think it would be better to use more precise and literal terminology than "woke" or "SJW."


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Dox47
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15 Sep 2022, 12:23 pm

Our ears are open, Mona.


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ASPartOfMe
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15 Sep 2022, 1:47 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
I am quite aware the conservatives not only do cancelling but have been doing it long before woke people were born. I started a thread about that. I had social media in mind when I wrote in the OP “ It was the conservatives that wrote the book. All the wokes have done is written the updated edition.” As I wrote a few posts down “ The wokes have just expanded upon what some of the conservatives did in part because they have the technology to do it. You could not just google and find out somebody did something you do not like 100 years ago. Everything tweet of yours was not recorded for some offense archeologist to dig up.”

While not limited to leftists to be you need to be into both canceling and presentism to be woke. There are leftists that agree with Critical Race theory but don’t agree with canceling or judging historical figures by solely by the current expanded definition of racism.

As far as I can tell, most right wingers, when using the word "woke" as an insult, don't limit it to people who are "into both canceling and presentism." Rather they use it as an insult against leftists in general, especially regarding social and cultural issues that have become prominent within the past 10 to 15 years or so.

Also, in general, I think it's hard to nail down a precise definition for a term whose primary usage today is sarcastic, rather than literal, in the first place. I suspect that this is also the main reason why QFT finds the term "woke" so confusing.

A few years ago, I had similar objections to the term "social justice warrior" -- which, like "woke" today, was another sarcastic term commonly used by right wingers to refer to leftists in general (especially regarding social and cultural issues), but was used by moderates like yourself to refer only to the fire-breathing fanatics.

If you are trying to make nuanced political distinctions -- especially in a forum for autistic people -- I think it would be better to use more precise and literal terminology than "woke" or "SJW."

It is not nuance to me. Being censorious or illiberal is a key part of that world view.

Politically charged words are going to be misused. The terms “Nazi” and “fascist” unlike “woke” have been around a long time and have very specific meanings. And they have been widely misused to describe anybody politician that has any authoritarian tendencies and any individual who is a strict disciplinarian. What are we supposed to do about it?. Any replacement word will be abused in short order.

I would not worry in time people will tire of “woke” like they did with “politically correct” and “SJW”. Not using SJW is justified because a key part of that term was fragility. People who protest or riot for weeks on end are not fragile.


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15 Sep 2022, 1:54 pm

Disney plus has decided to add warnings to their old films and amimation about stereotypes and racism and saying how they are aware it's wrong now.

People out there are too stupid to understand history and how times change so they will take offense to an old film and blame Disney Plus for making such a film. Look at the year it was made, I am pretty sure people working for Disney were not even alive yet or were children at the time and had nothing to do with the making. So Disney Plus had to put in a warning for these idiots.


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Mona Pereth
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15 Sep 2022, 1:58 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Our ears are open, Mona.

I would suggest simply naming the specific behaviors or attitudes you are objecting to.

For example, when objecting to mob mentality, just call it mob mentality. When objecting to online harassment, just call it online harassment. When objecting to hypocrisy, just call it hypocrisy. When objecting to dogmatism, just call it dogmatism.

All of the above things have been done by people with a variety of political beliefs.

When objecting to a specific political belief or theory, name the specific political belief or theory.

Sometimes it's appropriate to talk about more general political categories, such as "conservatives" vs. "progressives." In that case I think it's usually best to use quantifiers such as "most though not all" or "many," to avoid overgeneralizing.

(I'll admit that I probably slip up on this myself now and then, by over-generalizing about right-wingers. It's all too easy to over-generalize about people whom one doesn't like, or whose beliefs one regards as harmful.)


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ASPartOfMe
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15 Sep 2022, 2:09 pm

League_Girl wrote:
Disney plus has decided to add warnings to their old films and amimation about stereotypes and racism and saying how they are aware it's wrong now.

People out there are too stupid to understand history and how times change so they will take offense to an old film and blame Disney Plus for making such a film. Look at the year it was made, I am pretty sure people working for Disney were not even alive yet or were children at the time and had nothing to do with the making. So Disney Plus had to put in a warning for these idiots.

This is called trying to please both sides. They don’t want to cancel these films because they still make money for Disney. Disney will lose more money from conservative boycotts. But they still want to avoid boycotts from wokes so they the put up warnings to seem anti racist.

Prediction: They will please nobody.


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ASPartOfMe
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15 Sep 2022, 2:29 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Our ears are open, Mona.

I would suggest simply naming the specific behaviors or attitudes you are objecting to.

For example, when objecting to mob mentality, just call it mob mentality. When objecting to online harassment, just call it online harassment. When objecting to hypocrisy, just call it hypocrisy. When objecting to dogmatism, just call it dogmatism.

All of the above things have been done by people with a variety of political beliefs.

When objecting to a specific political belief or theory, name the specific political belief or theory.

Sometimes it's appropriate to talk about more general political categories, such as "conservatives" vs. "progressives." In that case I think it's usually best to use quantifiers such as "most though not all" or "many," to avoid overgeneralizing.

(I'll admit that I probably slip up on this myself now and then, by over-generalizing about right-wingers. It's all too easy to over-generalize about people whom one doesn't like, or whose beliefs one regards as harmful.)

That is fine but what if you want to describe the entire phenomenon?

Some people that think Trump won in 2020 are supporting DeSantis for 2024. You can call them MAGA’s, It’s alright, It’s alright.


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15 Sep 2022, 2:36 pm

I see what the OP means. Woke is becoming a kafkatrap. (Google kafkatrap if you don't know what it means).


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15 Sep 2022, 3:15 pm

League_Girl wrote:
Disney plus has decided to add warnings to their old films and amimation about stereotypes and racism and saying how they are aware it's wrong now.

People out there are too stupid to understand history and how times change so they will take offense to an old film and blame Disney Plus for making such a film. Look at the year it was made, I am pretty sure people working for Disney were not even alive yet or were children at the time and had nothing to do with the making. So Disney Plus had to put in a warning for these idiots.


And it's not just Disney. All new Hollywood movies these days feel like they are designed more to be like straight-up propaganda than actual entertainment.

I quit watching anything new that comes on TV a long time ago.



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15 Sep 2022, 4:30 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
Disney plus has decided to add warnings to their old films and amimation about stereotypes and racism and saying how they are aware it's wrong now.

People out there are too stupid to understand history and how times change so they will take offense to an old film and blame Disney Plus for making such a film. Look at the year it was made, I am pretty sure people working for Disney were not even alive yet or were children at the time and had nothing to do with the making. So Disney Plus had to put in a warning for these idiots.

This is called trying to please both sides. They don’t want to cancel these films because they still make money for Disney. Disney will lose more money from conservative boycotts. But they still want to avoid boycotts from wokes so they the put up warnings to seem anti racist.

Prediction: They will please nobody.



I dont think it makes me conservative for not wanting old Disney films cancelled. I also wouldn't be subscribed to their streaming service if they refused to have old Classics. I am so I can watch old films and watch old TV shows.


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Dox47
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15 Sep 2022, 8:23 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
When objecting to a specific political belief or theory, name the specific political belief or theory.


I do, it's called wokeness.


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15 Sep 2022, 10:12 pm

League_Girl wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
Disney plus has decided to add warnings to their old films and amimation about stereotypes and racism and saying how they are aware it's wrong now.

People out there are too stupid to understand history and how times change so they will take offense to an old film and blame Disney Plus for making such a film. Look at the year it was made, I am pretty sure people working for Disney were not even alive yet or were children at the time and had nothing to do with the making. So Disney Plus had to put in a warning for these idiots.

This is called trying to please both sides. They don’t want to cancel these films because they still make money for Disney. Disney will lose more money from conservative boycotts. But they still want to avoid boycotts from wokes so they the put up warnings to seem anti racist.

Prediction: They will please nobody.



I dont think it makes me conservative for not wanting old Disney films cancelled. I also wouldn't be subscribed to their streaming service if they refused to have old Classics. I am so I can watch old films and watch old TV shows.

After many political discussions with you, I would never mistake you for a conservative. But since you are against cancel culture you are not woke either.


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15 Sep 2022, 10:17 pm

Personally I take not being labelled as a MAGA Trumpet or a woke SJW as a badge of honor because I feel they are both destroying this country.



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15 Sep 2022, 10:18 pm

Definition of “Woke”, per google:

”alert to injustice in society, especially racism”

In that case, I’m woke AF!


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15 Sep 2022, 10:24 pm

CubsBullsBears wrote:
Definition of “Woke”, per google:

”alert to injustice in society, especially racism”

In that case, I’m woke AF!


Then I hope you don't bully people just for being white, or male, or straight, or American, or Christian, or some combination of the 5.

I support equality and correcting injustice but I don't pretend like all these woke brats arent just a bunch of arrogant bullies looking to blame every last single white male straight American Christian for all the evils in this world.



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15 Sep 2022, 10:52 pm

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
I feel they are both destroying this country.

They are both destroying the country. That is what makes the current situation so difficult and dangerous.

There is no good way to fight this situation. In this zero-sum game era of tribal politics if you speak up against one side does you are assumed to be a supporter of the other side or worse an enabler for the other side. That is because in arguing against one side you are inevitably going to use arguments that the other side uses often disingenuously.

There is a heroic image of the lone person staying true to oneself and fighting against conventional wisdom. I don't feel heroic. Extremely frustrated, frightened, and in mourning for values and things I hold dear being eaten away is more like it.


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