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The HORRIFIC Torture Of The Women Of The Battle Of Berlin

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Pepe
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22 Nov 2022, 6:29 am

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
I didn't know I was being manipulated...

Well anyways, yes there is no doubt in my mind that what the Nazis did during World War 2 was atrocious. But most Communist countries aren't much better. It just feels to me like the world is more forgiving of communists for some bizarre reason.

And for the record, I also see lately that capitalism has also been pretty terrible for many reasons...

Maybe it's just humans that are terrible?


cyberdad is misdirecting the conversation.
It was never a comparison between Russian and German atrocities.

cyberdad has difficulty understanding the point I was making.
I hope it is not intentional.



Pepe
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22 Nov 2022, 6:34 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
It seems the Ukrainians are much the same
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds- ... laborator/
https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/uk ... aborators/

This is a news story from 1 January 2022, shortly before the current invasion, about a rally being held by a group called "Right Sector" -- not "the Ukrainians" in general.



cyberdad has a habit of presenting articles that do not support his argument.
As a consequence, I generally don't read them.



kraftiekortie
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22 Nov 2022, 2:38 pm

How did I "miss" that connection?

Obviously, what happened with the Ukrainians is the same as what happened with the Germans.

Murder is murder. Raping and pillaging is raping and pillaging.

I put Stalin and Hitler in an identical category.



cyberdad
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22 Nov 2022, 6:54 pm

Pepe wrote:
cyberdad is misdirecting the conversation.
It was never a comparison between Russian and German atrocities.

cyberdad has difficulty understanding the point I was making.
I hope it is not intentional.


You started this thread with -The brave Russian military tradition continues today connecting russian atrocities against Ukrainian civilians with those against German civilians way back in WWII.

I posit that the tone of your posts are decidedly intended to cast the Russian people as "villians" I presented evidence that the two events are driven by completely different situational circumstances. I also forgot to point out that in both Ukraine and Nazi Germany there were documented cases of Russian troops who intervened to defend civilians from their own troops. Alas no such mercy was shown to the victims of german/Ukrainian pogroms against Jews, Slavs and Gyspies. The enthusiastic zeal shown by the fascists was far more horrific than anything that happened in the Battle of Berlin.

No amount of spinning is going to change history.



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22 Nov 2022, 8:25 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Pepe wrote:
cyberdad is misdirecting the conversation.
It was never a comparison between Russian and German atrocities.

cyberdad has difficulty understanding the point I was making.
I hope it is not intentional.


You started this thread with -The brave Russian military tradition continues today connecting russian atrocities against Ukrainian civilians with those against German civilians way back in WWII.

I posit that the tone of your posts are decidedly intended to cast the Russian people as "villians" I presented evidence that the two events are driven by completely different situational circumstances. I also forgot to point out that in both Ukraine and Nazi Germany there were documented cases of Russian troops who intervened to defend civilians from their own troops. Alas no such mercy was shown to the victims of german/Ukrainian pogroms against Jews, Slavs and Gyspies. The enthusiastic zeal shown by the fascists was far more horrific than anything that happened in the Battle of Berlin.

No amount of spinning is going to change history.


Actually, there had been some Germans of good character who hadn't carried out orders to kill Jews or others, and some such as many agents of German military intelligence, the Abwehr, had even rescued Jews from the SS by telling them the people being sent to death camps were Abwehr agents. Since the Spielberg movie, it's been found that Oskar Schindler had actually been recruited by the Abwehr. Abwehr chief, Wilhelm Cannaris, had covertly been an Anti-Nazi who had purposely caused his operations to fail, and had informed the Allies about Hitler's plans. Sadly, Cannaris was executed for his support of the failed Stauffenberg bomb plot on Hitler's life. Even actor Gert Frobe who played the title role of James Bond villain, Goldfinger, himself a Nazi during the war, had saved some Jews from certain death.


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kraftiekortie
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22 Nov 2022, 11:49 pm

It took a VERY brave German to defy the Nazis.



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23 Nov 2022, 12:10 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
It took a VERY brave German to defy the Nazis.


And those who were brave and had defied the Nazis, such as Col. Klaus Von Staffenberg, Admiral Wilhelm Cannaris, Field Marshal Erwin Rommel, Rev. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the membership of the White Rose, and others payed with their lives for that courage.


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cyberdad
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23 Nov 2022, 5:59 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
It took a VERY brave German to defy the Nazis.


And those who were brave and had defied the Nazis, such as Col. Klaus Von Staffenberg, Admiral Wilhelm Cannaris, Field Marshal Erwin Rommel, Rev. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the membership of the White Rose, and others payed with their lives for that courage.


I acknowledge there was a resistance but it needed to be highly secretive given the paranoia and tentacles the SS had in German society where even members of the Hitler youth reported on their own parents

I am surprised you included Rommel in that list? I though Hitler loved him?



kraftiekortie
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23 Nov 2022, 8:07 am

Rommel wanted Hitler dead. He was part of the conspiracy to kill him, I believe.



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23 Nov 2022, 8:30 am

I was unaware of these brave German men who died trying to stop Hitler and helping some of the Jews escape the death camps.

It goes to show that even when you see a nation at its worst and they appear to lose all humanity there is still hope to be found. :)



carlos55
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23 Nov 2022, 8:37 am

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
I was unaware of these brave German men who died trying to stop Hitler and helping some of the Jews escape the death camps.

It goes to show that even when you see a nation at its worst and they appear to lose all humanity there is still hope to be found. :)


Most ordinary Germans had no idea of the holocaust even in the village bordering the well known death camps had little idea what went on there.

This all happened before TV , internet etc.. most citizens both allied and Germans got the news from movie theaters about a week after it happened and both sides heavily censored and propagandized what was shown.


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DeathFlowerKing
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23 Nov 2022, 8:42 am

carlos55 wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
I was unaware of these brave German men who died trying to stop Hitler and helping some of the Jews escape the death camps.

It goes to show that even when you see a nation at its worst and they appear to lose all humanity there is still hope to be found. :)


Most ordinary Germans had no idea of the holocaust even in the village bordering the well known death camps had little idea what went on there.

This all happened before TV , internet etc.. most citizens both allied and Germans got the news from movie theaters about a week after it happened and both sides heavily censored and propagandized what was shown.


That's true... any time I watch videos and documentaries about WW2 from the American POV I can tell it's heavily propagandized. Like in regards to how we treated the Japanese during this war. They make our side sound so honorable and never bring up the fact that we were shooting Japanese soldiers who had surrendered and collecting their skulls as trophies.

And don't even get me started on the Japanese internment camps, or the atom bombs we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. :|



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23 Nov 2022, 9:26 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Rommel wanted Hitler dead. He was part of the conspiracy to kill him, I believe.


Indeed. Rommel was a decent human being who came to recognize evil.


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23 Nov 2022, 9:34 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
It took a VERY brave German to defy the Nazis.


And those who were brave and had defied the Nazis, such as Col. Klaus Von Staffenberg, Admiral Wilhelm Cannaris, Field Marshal Erwin Rommel, Rev. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the membership of the White Rose, and others payed with their lives for that courage.


I acknowledge there was a resistance but it needed to be highly secretive given the paranoia and tentacles the SS had in German society where even members of the Hitler youth reported on their own parents

I am surprised you included Rommel in that list? I though Hitler loved him?


Hitler did love Rommel when he was kicking a$$ and taking names for the Third Reich. But when Hitler learned that Rommel had been part of the Anti Nazi resistance within the German military, the Black Orchestra, that had tried to assassinate him. Rommel was given two choices: Number one, commit suicide, and officially the news would say he had died from his wounds he had suffered during an Allied air attack. Or, number two, he could be put through a public show trial, be found guilty, and get executed while his family would be sent to a concentration camp (which happened to the other Anti-Nazi conspirators). Out of love for his family, Rommel chose number one. Hitler sent flowers to the funeral.


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24 Nov 2022, 1:22 am

Pepe wrote:
cyberdad has always been a communist apologist.


Oh and BTW calling me a communist apologist is akin to me calling you a nazi apologist (which I would never do). I suggest you kindly retract that somewhat distorted label.

I have always said I don't support a now dead philosophy (and before you reply no....China, Cuba, North Korea and Russia don't actually practice socialism/communism anymore).



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24 Nov 2022, 1:30 am

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
I was unaware of these brave German men who died trying to stop Hitler and helping some of the Jews escape the death camps.

It goes to show that even when you see a nation at its worst and they appear to lose all humanity there is still hope to be found. :)


Most ordinary Germans had no idea of the holocaust even in the village bordering the well known death camps had little idea what went on there.

This all happened before TV , internet etc.. most citizens both allied and Germans got the news from movie theaters about a week after it happened and both sides heavily censored and propagandized what was shown.


That's true... any time I watch videos and documentaries about WW2 from the American POV I can tell it's heavily propagandized. Like in regards to how we treated the Japanese during this war. They make our side sound so honorable and never bring up the fact that we were shooting Japanese soldiers who had surrendered and collecting their skulls as trophies.

And don't even get me started on the Japanese internment camps, or the atom bombs we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. :|


Worst part is the second bomb was dropped expirimenetally to see what would happen. Even dropping the first one was extreme but people felt it was nessisary...dropping the second one was not even seen as necessary but they still dropped it. Idk I feel it is one of the most disgusting things this country has ever done....I just don't feel it is right to nuke civilians ever.


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