The HORRIFIC Torture Of The Women Of The Battle Of Berlin

Page 16 of 21 [ 335 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 ... 21  Next

carlos55
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 Mar 2018
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,379

04 Dec 2022, 6:13 pm

magz wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
Poland and Russia were at war just two decades prior
...started by a Russian invasion.

I'm just pointing out how this "fear of invasion" exceuse is completely void - yet you're not the first Brit on WP to mention it. It's all BS, Russians were invaders, both in 1920 and in 1939 (Poland and Finland), and in 2022, and no possible fear of being invaded justifies it beyond sheer propaganda.

carlos55 wrote:
Not saying it was good or anything I’m not Slav anyway so have no dog in the fight.
Bitterly said: Neither was Churchill when he pacted with Stalin.


Appears Poland did some invading and annexing of their own of territory that didn’t belong to it into Czechoslovakia just a year or so before.

Like I said I’m neither Slav or E European so not taking sides in anything.

But at the same time pretending all these great European powers of the early 20th century inc Britain, Poland France were these peacefully angels is BS too.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Czechoslovak_border_conflicts


_________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends upon the unreasonable man."

- George Bernie Shaw


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 15,501
Location: Poland

05 Dec 2022, 2:45 am

What I was trying to tell, was that the Nazi Germany was evil but Soviet Russia did not pale compared to them. It was the same kind of mass homicidal regime, differently flavored, so to say. You know that in 1930s, Germans voted for nazis because they found them lesser evil than communists?
But the crimes of the Nazi Germany were held against them yet the crimes of Soviet Russia were denied and silenced. This is the main difference between the two - and I believe it contributes greatly to the difference between what Germany and Russia are today.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


carlos55
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 Mar 2018
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,379

05 Dec 2022, 3:17 am

magz wrote:
What I was trying to tell, was that the Nazi Germany was evil but Soviet Russia did not pale compared to them. It was the same kind of mass homicidal regime, differently flavored, so to say. You know that in 1930s, Germans voted for nazis because they found them lesser evil than communists?
But the crimes of the Nazi Germany were held against them yet the crimes of Soviet Russia were denied and silenced. This is the main difference between the two - and I believe it contributes greatly to the difference between what Germany and Russia are today.


Yes I agree the only reason for that maybe was that in 1945 those Germans still alive that did those crimes i.e the leadership class were still alive.

By 1990 most of the WW2 leadership class in Russia were dead.

Russians are famous for their low life expectancy (usually caused by alcohol) so anyone over 35 ( min age someone gets to serious decisions post ) they would have been 80 by then.

Of course you still have the ordinary soldiers who did the rapes but then you run into the argument why pick on Russian soldiers rather than US or British ones


_________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends upon the unreasonable man."

- George Bernie Shaw


Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 23,858
Location: Australia

05 Dec 2022, 4:49 am

carlos55 wrote:
Of course you still have the ordinary soldiers who did the rapes but then you run into the argument why pick on Russian soldiers rather than US or British ones


No other country engaged in rape-fest the way the Soviets did, and the hierarchy turned a blind eye.

Do you have any links where the German army did the same?
I doubt Hitler would have allowed it. He had conflicting morality.


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 15,501
Location: Poland

05 Dec 2022, 5:29 am

carlos55 wrote:
magz wrote:
What I was trying to tell, was that the Nazi Germany was evil but Soviet Russia did not pale compared to them. It was the same kind of mass homicidal regime, differently flavored, so to say. You know that in 1930s, Germans voted for nazis because they found them lesser evil than communists?
But the crimes of the Nazi Germany were held against them yet the crimes of Soviet Russia were denied and silenced. This is the main difference between the two - and I believe it contributes greatly to the difference between what Germany and Russia are today.


Yes I agree the only reason for that maybe was that in 1945 those Germans still alive that did those crimes i.e the leadership class were still alive.

By 1990 most of the WW2 leadership class in Russia were dead.

Russians are famous for their low life expectancy (usually caused by alcohol) so anyone over 35 ( min age someone gets to serious decisions post ) they would have been 80 by then.

Of course you still have the ordinary soldiers who did the rapes but then you run into the argument why pick on Russian soldiers rather than US or British ones

You're still not getting it.
1. Rapes committed by Soviet soldiers weren't random incidents, they were practically a policy (as supported by memories of a Russian soldier I quoted);
2. It's far from the only attrocity of the Soviet state;
3. Why were Germans judged starting in 1945 but Russians had to wait until 1990s, if anything? Do you get any idea of how it was to live for over 4 decades being forbidden to even talk about the trauma in your family?
4. It's still important to be aware of it, just like it's still important to be aware of e.g. horrors of trans-Atlantic slave trade, even if no one directly involved is alive today - because the impact is still there and being forced to be quiet about it makes it worse.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 15,501
Location: Poland

05 Dec 2022, 5:38 am

Pepe wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
Of course you still have the ordinary soldiers who did the rapes but then you run into the argument why pick on Russian soldiers rather than US or British ones


No other country engaged in rape-fest the way the Soviets did, and the hierarchy turned a blind eye.

Do you have any links where the German army did the same?
I doubt Hitler would have allowed it. He had conflicting morality.

AFAIK, from various memories and family stories - German army was way better discilpined and, generally, just an army, running a horrible war that included attacking civilian targets (but the allies did this, too). Nazi Germany took pride in German military traditions, both in terms of conquer and discipline.
The attrocitous ones were SS - and, of course, the whole concentration and death camps system (which was partially ran by SS and which started before the war started).

Nazi Germans had conflicting morality. Soviet Russians, too. I believe most of the horrible mass-scale attrocities around the world are done by people of "conflicting morality".


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 86,962
Location: Queens, NYC

05 Dec 2022, 6:46 am

Most of the Allied powers were seeking peace in the interwar period—but both the USSR and Nazi Germany didn’t believe that peace was expedient.



carlos55
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 Mar 2018
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,379

05 Dec 2022, 8:18 am

magz wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
magz wrote:
What I was trying to tell, was that the Nazi Germany was evil but Soviet Russia did not pale compared to them. It was the same kind of mass homicidal regime, differently flavored, so to say. You know that in 1930s, Germans voted for nazis because they found them lesser evil than communists?
But the crimes of the Nazi Germany were held against them yet the crimes of Soviet Russia were denied and silenced. This is the main difference between the two - and I believe it contributes greatly to the difference between what Germany and Russia are today.


Yes I agree the only reason for that maybe was that in 1945 those Germans still alive that did those crimes i.e the leadership class were still alive.

By 1990 most of the WW2 leadership class in Russia were dead.

Russians are famous for their low life expectancy (usually caused by alcohol) so anyone over 35 ( min age someone gets to serious decisions post ) they would have been 80 by then.

Of course you still have the ordinary soldiers who did the rapes but then you run into the argument why pick on Russian soldiers rather than US or British ones

You're still not getting it.
1. Rapes committed by Soviet soldiers weren't random incidents, they were practically a policy (as supported by memories of a Russian soldier I quoted);
2. It's far from the only attrocity of the Soviet state;
3. Why were Germans judged starting in 1945 but Russians had to wait until 1990s, if anything? Do you get any idea of how it was to live for over 4 decades being forbidden to even talk about the trauma in your family?
4. It's still important to be aware of it, just like it's still important to be aware of e.g. horrors of trans-Atlantic slave trade, even if no one directly involved is alive today - because the impact is still there and being forced to be quiet about it makes it worse.


The USSR was a dictatorship and unoccupied where Germany was militarily defeated and occupied

Here’s some other probable reasons:-

1. The USSR was made up of 15 states of which Ukraine has quite a high position of power compared to the other 13 by comparison, so if Russia apologizes what about some of the Ukrainian decision makers are they expected to apologize too if not why?

2. Most of the worst crimes of the USSR happened in the early to mid 20th century the crimes since then diminished in size and magnitude after Stalins death

3. It’s controversial on how far a country or citizens who live there are responsible for the actions of a dictatorship does Iraq apologize for Saddam Hussein? Should Iraqis somehow get blamed for his invasion of Iran or Kuwait?

4. Like I said those senior decision makers responsible of stuff in 1940’s and 50’s were likely dead

5. Did Russians themselves not suffer under Stalin or USSR? was it a paradise there? was you not just as likely to get a knock at the door from the secret police if you lived in Moscow as opposed to E Berlin? In which case why apologize if your the victim yourself?

6. Is anyone else apologizing and being prosecuted as well for stuff their country did in living memory, is the US apologizing for helping S American dictatorships that tortured there people, did US apologize for bombing Vietnam villages, spraying agent orange poisoning the place. Did they apologize for using depleted Uranium in desert storm in 1990 that caused birth defects.

I believe US Secretary of State Madeline Albright said a million Iraqi kids dying from sanctions was a price worth paying and she only died a year or so I believe.

So everyone apologizes and is brought to justice which I think is good.

But still waiting for Tony Blair to apologize and be prosecuted for lying about Iraq war. Don’t think that will happen soon :cry:


_________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends upon the unreasonable man."

- George Bernie Shaw


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 15,501
Location: Poland

05 Dec 2022, 8:29 am

Lot's of USSR attrocities were against their own citizens. Does it make them less attrocitous?


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 86,962
Location: Queens, NYC

05 Dec 2022, 11:06 am

Right now, at this point in time, Russian soldiers are committing atrocities at a genocidal level. Whether they are doing this on their own, or because of orders from above----really doesn't matter.

There are mass graves. There are forced deportations. There are things which we don't know about as of yet.

This is medieval stuff that is going on. And I thought we were way beyond that point!



Jakki
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2019
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,741
Location: Outter Quadrant

05 Dec 2022, 11:54 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Most of the Allied powers were seeking peace in the interwar period—but both the USSR and Nazi Germany didn’t believe that peace was expedient.


Not sure if I am interjecting this at the right time,but, it has long time since back then. That the US economy is a Wartime based economy . And no one thinks twice . Looking at pie chart of the entire US economy for past many ,years repeated saw that industrial Military complexes eat 2/3 rds of the pie. Every year.. Even if we reduced that to one half .. Some many people would have better lives overhere, And hopefully increased Social Programs for benefit of the people ..And ideally not for additional burocrasy.


_________________
Diagnosed hfa
Loves velcro,
Quote:
where ever you go ,there you are


KitLily
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Jan 2021
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,517
Location: England

05 Dec 2022, 12:28 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Right now, at this point in time, Russian soldiers are committing atrocities at a genocidal level. Whether they are doing this on their own, or because of orders from above----really doesn't matter.

There are mass graves. There are forced deportations. There are things which we don't know about as of yet.

This is medieval stuff that is going on. And I thought we were way beyond that point!


I agree. Humans are not evolving past this type of behaviour. Maybe because there are just more of us now and we're living closer together, fighting for territory? At the time of WW2, there were about 2.5 billion humans. Now we are 8 billion. That must make a difference.

I suspect a large percentage of the atrocities are being done by mercenaries. There are a heck of a lot of mercenaries from Syria, the Wagner group etc. there.

I'm not saying none of the atrocities are being done by Russian soldiers but there's a lot of undisciplined groups involved.

There will be a huge tsunami of horrors revealed when this war ends, as there always is. When the war began, I used to read about them for some reason but I stopped.


_________________
I am here for interesting, meaningful discussions and thoughtful, rewarding conversations. I very quickly lose interest in long, drawn-out arguments.
***
I'm sorry if I get you mixed up with other people, I'm not good at telling people apart. Just remind me of our last conversation then I'll know who you are.


kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 86,962
Location: Queens, NYC

05 Dec 2022, 2:19 pm

When there are mass graves (and, yes, there is objective evidence of mass graves in cities which Russians conquered, and Ukrainians re-conquered), it is more than "mercenaries." This sort of thing has to be organized by people in authority (which are either Russian noncommissioned or commissioned officers, at least).

This is by no means critical of Lily. The idea that mercenaries could be doing some of the atrocities makes sense.



carlos55
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 Mar 2018
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,379

05 Dec 2022, 4:11 pm

Think this thread discussion is going around in circles & getting silly, could have been wrapped up in a few posts rather than 16 pages!

The current Ukraine war is discussed elsewhere


_________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends upon the unreasonable man."

- George Bernie Shaw


kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 86,962
Location: Queens, NYC

05 Dec 2022, 4:50 pm

It's about soldiers going berserk upon civilian populations---it was originally about how the Soviets brutalized the German civilian population.

I never deviated from the topic; in fact, I find that I expounded on the topic. It's always good to have a discussion on all uncivilized acts perpetuated by armies.



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 68
Gender: Male
Posts: 30,706
Location: temperate zone

05 Dec 2022, 7:21 pm

carlos55 wrote:
Think this thread discussion is going around in circles & getting silly, could have been wrapped up in a few posts rather than 16 pages!



For real. It was a thoroughly inane "whose holocaust was the worst?" discussion to begin with. The topic should have been wrapped up in a single page. :roll: