The HORRIFIC Torture Of The Women Of The Battle Of Berlin

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magz
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04 Nov 2022, 3:50 am

cyberdad wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

CockneyRebel wrote:

It was horrible what the Russians did to the Germans.

Absolutely true. While the Nazis had done horrible atrocities during the war, the common people did not. What we are seeing today in Ukraine is very much a replay of what Stalin's troops had committed.

Nobody wants to see this in 2022 but drawing lines from Putin to Stalin is a non-sequitur

Why?
How are mass graves from 1944 different from mass graves from 2022?

Putin has been intentionally trying to re-create the atmosphere from the end of WWII, building up propaganda that Ukrainian state was overrun by nazis - his exact words. He exactly tries to make it another "Great Fatherland War", as they call WWII after 1941 in Russia (they conveniently don't teach about what Russia was doing in 1939-1941...)
He tries to be a new Stalin.
https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/20 ... lin-legacy
https://time.com/6218211/vladimir-putin ... perialism/

And their troops rape, loot, torture and leave behind mass graves of those they've "liberated" - exactly like they did back then. Only this time they've attacked a regular state, not one that already had set half of Europe on fire.

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cyberdad
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04 Nov 2022, 3:57 am

magz wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

CockneyRebel wrote:

It was horrible what the Russians did to the Germans.

Nobody wants to see this in 2022 but drawing lines from Putin to Stalin is a non-sequitur

Why?
How are mass graves from 1944 different from mass graves from 2022?

Putin has been intentionally trying to re-create the atmosphere from the end of WWII, building up propaganda that Ukrainian state was overrun by nazis - his exact words. He exactly tries to make it another "Great Fatherland War", as they call WWII in Russia.
He tries to be a new Stalin.
https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/20 ... lin-legacy
https://time.com/6218211/vladimir-putin ... perialism/

And their troops rape, loot, torture and leave behind mass graves, just like they did back then. Only this time they've attacked a regular state, not one that already had set half of Europe on fire.

But aren't Ukrainians also drawing on WWIII as well? Your own government isn't happy with them
https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/uk ... aborators/

magz
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04 Nov 2022, 4:19 am

How does that relate to anything I've said?

They whitewash Bandera, seeing his activities as part of historical struggle for independence. I can even easily understand why in Bandera's times Ukrainians saw both Russia and Poland as their enemies, so they hoped to gain something with help of Germans. A bit similar to how Poland supported Napoleon Bonaparte over 100 years earlier.

But this is not the main narrative in modern Ukraine. What we call "Wolyn Massacre" they call "Wolyn Tragedy" and even the self-identified Ukrainian nationalists I've encountered aren't proud of it and don't want it to repeat. The war speeded up dialogue on this between Poland and Ukraine and it's being pretty constructive, on both sides.

Anyway - how does it relate to anything I've said about Putin admitting himself he wanted to be a next Stalin?

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cyberdad
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04 Nov 2022, 6:11 am

magz wrote:

Anyway - how does it relate to anything I've said about Putin admitting himself he wanted to be a next Stalin?

I am trying to point out that arguing that Putin is "inspired" by Stalin or has "aspirations" to emulate the old Soviet Union or "resurrect" the Soviet Union is falling into the mind trap set up by the OP who has ulterior motives to whitewash Nazi war crimes by pointing out what happened to women in Germany by liberating Soviet troops.

That is no different to me pointing out that Ukraine still glorifies Nazism from WWII. I don't like it (and neither does your government of Poland) but it's irrelevant to the predicament that Ukrainian civilians find themselves in facing Russian forces right now in 2022.

Frankly I don't see what happened to German women in WWII has to do with Russian invasion of Ukraine.

kraftiekortie
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04 Nov 2022, 9:23 am

Putin wants a "Greater Russia," like Hitler wanted "Lebensraum."

I see many dangerous parallels between Putin and Hitler.

blitzkrieg
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04 Nov 2022, 9:27 am

kraftiekortie wrote:

Putin wants a "Greater Russia," like Hitler wanted "Lebensraum."

I see many dangerous parallels between Putin and Hitler.

I agree. Putin is a madman, same as Hitler was & has some similar ideas.

magz
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04 Nov 2022, 11:45 am

cyberdad wrote:

magz wrote:

Anyway - how does it relate to anything I've said about Putin admitting himself he wanted to be a next Stalin?

Realizing the crimes of communism, including the way they "liberated" people, is not whitewashing the nazi. Why would it be?

cyberdad wrote:

That is no different to me pointing out that Ukraine still glorifies Nazism from WWII. I don't like it (and neither does your government of Poland) but it's irrelevant to the predicament that Ukrainian civilians find themselves in facing Russian forces right now in 2022.

Frankly I don't see what happened to German women in WWII has to do with Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Because they're singing the very same song, claiming to "liberate" against "nazis" (this time largely nonexistent except for some fringe groups that most Western countries struggle with... groups that often turn out financed by Kremlin, by the way) and doing exactly the same attrocities on the same mass scale. They're making the link themselves, in their propaganda - including today's Putin's speech where he keeps calling Ukrainian government a "neo-nazi regime" and accusing Poland of planning to annex western Ukraine so he needs to "liberate" Ukrainian people... and you can see what this "liberating" looks like.
For people who remember the Red Army, it's like a nightmarish deja vu.

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KitLily
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04 Nov 2022, 12:36 pm

This is what war has always been like since the beginning of time, the Romans used to do it and everyone afterwards.

The male soldiers/invaders think it's correct/fun to attack and torture the 'enemy' women and children. Why? To somehow get their own back on the enemy? Even though they've already beaten the enemy. Even though the women and children weren't fighting in the war. Especially not the children.

I think war should be between soldiers, not civilians. Humans haven't evolved, at all.

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Kraichgauer
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04 Nov 2022, 2:12 pm

cyberdad wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

CockneyRebel wrote:

It was horrible what the Russians did to the Germans.

Nobody wants to see this in 2022 but drawing lines from Putin to Stalin is a non-sequitur

Though for the past few years, Putin has been promoting Stalin's legacy. I suspect Joe is the sort of leader Putin would like to be.

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Pepe
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22 Nov 2022, 5:55 am

Quote:

It is about mass rapes of soldiers against the defenseless civilian population.

Depending on the source, it is reported differently.

According to Russian "historiography", either mass rapes did not occur or they were limited to a few sporadic (and in wartime unavoidable) individual cases.

According to Western "historiography," the Soviets were guilty of an unknown number of rapes of women, men, and children.

The estimated number varies from a few hundred thousand to 2 million cases.

Coming to terms with these difficult historical moments is difficult today, even though only 75 years have passed.

I would like to quote here some opinions about it:

British historian Antony Beevor claims that this was "the largest mass rape phenomenon in history " and concluded that at least 1.4 million women were raped in parts of East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia alone.

American historian William Hitchcock says that in many cases women were subjected to repeated rapes, some as many as 60 to 70 times.

It is believed that at least 100,000 women were raped in Berlin alone. This statistic comes from hospital reports. This is because in the months following the Soviet invasion, some 10,000 pregnancies were terminated in the city's hospitals.

The number of women who died in connection with rape in postwar Germany is estimated at 240,000.

According to Natalya Gesse, Soviet soldiers raped German "women" between the ages of eight and eighty.

https://www.quora.com/

Pepe
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22 Nov 2022, 6:00 am

magz wrote:

Realizing the crimes of communism, including the way they "liberated" people, is not whitewashing the nazi. Why would it be?

cyberdad has always been a communist apologist.
We have crossed "swords" on many occasions over the 9 years I have been a member.

Pepe
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22 Nov 2022, 6:05 am

magz wrote:

How does that relate to anything I've said?

Refer to:

Quote:

non se·qui·tur ˌnän-ˈse-kwə-tər
also -ˌtu̇r
1
: an inference (see inference sense 1) that does not follow from the premises (see premise entry 1 sense 1)

https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... 20sequitur

Pepe
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22 Nov 2022, 6:08 am

magz wrote:

You really believe it had just one source, in addition a pretty distant one?

Then you're ignoring all the processes that took place in Europe before, during and after WWI.

Some ppl have a habit of over simplifying.

Pepe
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22 Nov 2022, 6:11 am

cyberdad wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

CockneyRebel wrote:

It was horrible what the Russians did to the Germans.

Nobody wants to see this in 2022 but drawing lines from Putin to Stalin is a non-sequitur

Pepe
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22 Nov 2022, 6:18 am

cyberdad wrote:

Pepe wrote:

And how did the Ukrainian women deserve the same treatment?
Your argument is illogical, as per usual.

I was talking about WWII. You said the Russians are carrying on a "tradition" against Ukrainian civilians.

It seems the Ukrainians are much the same
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds- ... laborator/
https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/uk ... aborators/

Once again, your logic is wanting.
Your statement has no connection with what I have said.
My statement stands on its own merit.
What I said is not invalidated by what you have said.
But I suspect you can't see the distinction.
"Curious", but not unexpected.

Pepe
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22 Nov 2022, 6:22 am

kraftiekortie wrote:

How did I “miss the first line?”

I acknowledged the suffering endured by German civilians. They didn’t deserve what happened to them.

I was talking about “genocide being genocide,” no matter if it’s, say, 10 million killed versus 30 million killed.

What am I an “apologist” for?

If you believe I’m an “apologist,” then YOUR logic is deeply flawed.

You missed my connection between what happened in WWII against German civilians to what has happened to the civilian population in Ukraine.

Where did I suggest you were an apologist?
You have misinterpreted what I said.

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