Calfornia...Has it been destroyed by left-wing polices?

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blitzkrieg
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14 Nov 2022, 10:43 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
There are lots of places where there is no public transportation to get to those places "a couple of miles away."


Yep. Particularly relevant if a person has limited mobility.



Fnord
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14 Nov 2022, 7:11 pm

Which way do you want it: (a) A government that coddles you from birth to death by providing for your every need in-between; or (b) a government that allows you complete freedom to choose how you will live and how wealthy you will be?

You cannot have it both ways.


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auntblabby
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14 Nov 2022, 7:24 pm

A for the win, most folks here i suspect would choose A.



Fnord
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14 Nov 2022, 7:42 pm

^If that is true, then it would seem that most folks would prefer being raised as complacent and passive sheep, instead of seeking self-improvement and wealth.

We cannot remain spoon-fed infants forever.


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blitzkrieg
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14 Nov 2022, 8:08 pm

I propose option C:

A society and an economy where people can prosper and be rewarded for hard work & a society that also has a reasonable social safety net.

These places do exist in Europe, in Scandinavian countries, Germany & France and so on. :mrgreen:



auntblabby
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14 Nov 2022, 8:32 pm

^^^yes, they call that the "Third way" but amuuuricans say "SSHHHHHH!! !" whenever you mention that. it spoils their game.



DW_a_mom
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14 Nov 2022, 9:13 pm

Fnord wrote:
Which way do you want it: (a) A government that coddles you from birth to death by providing for your every need in-between; or (b) a government that allows you complete freedom to choose how you will live and how wealthy you will be?

You cannot have it both ways.


Neither. Society works best when it sits somewhere in the middle. Basic needs met with enough freedom for innovation to thrive.

It constantly surprises me how many people don't seem to understand that, and spend their lives arguing at the extremes.


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Last edited by DW_a_mom on 14 Nov 2022, 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DW_a_mom
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14 Nov 2022, 9:16 pm

blitzkrieg wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
There are lots of places where there is no public transportation to get to those places "a couple of miles away."


Yep. Particularly relevant if a person has limited mobility.


Mobility is a worthy point. My son, after all, is pursuing a "no car" model with biking being his primary mode of transportation, with services like Lyft and rental cars to fill in the gaps. We did the math and realized he can make pretty generous use of ride share services and rental cars and still be paying less per month than he would in car payments. But if someone has mobility issues, the formula would be quite different.


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blitzkrieg
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14 Nov 2022, 11:40 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
blitzkrieg wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
There are lots of places where there is no public transportation to get to those places "a couple of miles away."


Yep. Particularly relevant if a person has limited mobility.


Mobility is a worthy point. My son, after all, is pursuing a "no car" model with biking being his primary mode of transportation, with services like Lyft and rental cars to fill in the gaps. We did the math and realized he can make pretty generous use of ride share services and rental cars and still be paying less per month than he would in car payments. But if someone has mobility issues, the formula would be quite different.


Plenty of people cannot go a few miles on foot or by cycle because of being overweight, or having issues with chronic fatigue, or having physical disabilities.

To be honest, I think anything is better than having to ride by car & if a person can weather the sensory overload of public transport the benefits are two fold:

a) It is cheaper
b) It is more environmentally friendly.

Edit: Where public transport isn't available, ride shares are cool.



Last edited by blitzkrieg on 14 Nov 2022, 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

blitzkrieg
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14 Nov 2022, 11:41 pm

auntblabby wrote:
^^^yes, they call that the "Third way" but amuuuricans say "SSHHHHHH!! !" whenever you mention that. it spoils their game.


I know right? You can tell there are a lot of Americans on this forum, judging by some of the thread titles especially.



stratozyck
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15 Nov 2022, 12:15 am

Fnord wrote:
Wealth is the goal of Capitalism.  Capitalism exists mostly in societies where there is a disparity in education.  This disparity usually begins in primary school, where those students who do well pull ahead of those classmates who do poorly.

Those who do better in school get better jobs than those who do poorly in school -- this is not cast in adamantium, but it is the way to bet. Those with the better jobs earn higher incomes than those with poorer jobs -- again, not cast in adamantium, but the general trend.

The only way (under current conditions) to eliminate the economic disparity is to pay everyone the same low, hourly wage, no matter how valuable their labor actually is -- pay the brain surgeon the same wage as the lawnmower operator, for example.


This is a fantasy. Look up how much wealth is inherited.

Yes, you can pull ahead by studying hard. But please explain why wages have stagnated or declined for those with education.

What has happened is the capital class has used the levers of power to gain more from themselves.

You set up a nice story that confirms your view point - the real problem is not brain surgeons and lawnmower operators, its the rich capital owners who are buying up land as investment vehicles that are driving up the rent and housing costs for the rest of us. Lawnmower operators used to get paid more but because the middle class is getting squeezed by health care and housing costs, they can afford less so their wages aren't as high as they could be.

Ask yourself why Bill Gates is the world's largest landowner. It doesn't create wealth to buy up land from someone else and then rent it back to agribusiness. Its just shuffling assets.



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15 Nov 2022, 5:35 am

stratozyck wrote:
You set up a nice story that confirms your view point - the real problem is not brain surgeons and lawnmower operators, its the rich capital owners who are buying up land as investment vehicles that are driving up the rent and housing costs for the rest of us. Lawnmower operators used to get paid more but because the middle class is getting squeezed by health care and housing costs, they can afford less so their wages aren't as high as they could be.
Instead of criticism (and assuming to know what I am thinking) try coming up with a solution, like DW_a_mom did:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Basic needs met with enough freedom for innovation to thrive.
Blitz identified this as the Scandinavian Model, which seems to work well for them.

And Blabs, it is not the Americans who nix the plan (many of us would gladly participate); it is the wealthy, conservative lawmakers who shoot down every effort to provide a safety net for those who cannot provide one for themselves.  Remember "Obamacare"?


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auntblabby
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15 Nov 2022, 5:41 am

but it takes a critical mass of gullible 'muuricans to vote to give the richies what they want at our expense. so in a strict sense, one can say that a working majority of voting amuuuricans can easily be driven [by wealthy propagandists] to repeatedly vote against what is really in their best interest, namely a working social safety net. dunning-kreuger says we're likely doomed unless enough 'muuricans wise up PDQ.



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15 Nov 2022, 7:03 pm

auntblabby wrote:
but it takes a critical mass of gullible 'muuricans to vote to give the richies what they want at our expense . . .
Not really.  Simple majorities in both the House and Senate, with a Presidential signature and no legal challenges was all it took for the income tax to shift from a rich man's duty to a working man's burden (for example).


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blitzkrieg
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15 Nov 2022, 8:05 pm

The American working class get a raw deal I think.

Although wages are fairly high, for skilled work at least, versus a lot of places in Europe, you are basically doomed if you have chronic health conditions or are poor.

I feel bad for Autistic Americans, because even those who are able to hold down a job must worry without a proper welfare system in place that someday if their health fails, they might end up in trouble?



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15 Nov 2022, 8:14 pm

So many people on here that believe everything conservative or right-wing is stupid or evil.