Israel, Jerusalem, US Israel relations

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Basically, this time I'd like to talk to you about Israel, Jerusalem, US Israel relations, and other topics like that.

About Israel, I was hoping if you can please what you think about my country in generally, do you like Israel or not, do you hate / like Israeli people?

About Jerusalem, I was born in Jerusalem but currently live in the Southern part of Israel, in a city called Ashdod. Can you explain what you think about that?

About US Israel relations, do you think its okay, or the US presidents like us too much, and the love is too strong? Joe Biden and Trump love us very much, and sometimes I feel like the love is too strong sometimes.

Thanks

I have known Jewish people and Palestinian people and have got along fine with all of them at an individual level. However, I think the situation in Palestine/Israel increasingly intolerable/volatile as the Israelis grab more and more land off the Palestinians forcing families out of their homes that they have lived in for many generations so Israelis can live there. There are also various atrocities committed by Israel leaving victims without recourse to justice. e.g. the murder of the Al-Jazeera journalist Shireen Abu Akleh by Israeli soldiers with nobody held responsible. These and many other actions are giving Israel a very bad image around the world. Now you've just got an extreme right wing government I expect the situation to get even worse and foresee much more bloodshed on both sides.

I have no problem with Israeli people.

It doesn’t matter where in Israel you live.

I feel the Palestinians and other Arabs are discriminated against by Israeli authorities.

I feel like the US-Israeli relationship is probably very important for both the US and Israel, for various reasons.

Having been to Israel twice, I know how heterogenous this small country is. Really lots of groups and factions and internal power struggles.
I don't like the Israeli-Palestinian war and I don't buy the entirety of propaganda on it from either side. It's something horribly damaging both nations and I think in this case, Israel has more power and thus more responsibility for seeking lasting peace.
Otherwise, living in such a volatile part of the world, with such heterogenous population - life doesn't offer easy solutions to problems. I know it. Still, I don't like the way things are.

Jerusalem is special Reminded me of some quote from Pratchett about Ankh-Morpork being built on Ankh-Morpork Millenia of prehistory, history and more history stacked upon each other. And living, building up, making more of it all the time.
And this golden limestone is unmatched

I have nothing against Israel or Israeli people other than the fact that they treat Palestinians horribly and that they accuse anyone who expresses sympathy for the Palestinians of being an "anti-semite".

They are basically an apartheid state as far as I'm concerned. The way they treat Palestinians is no different than the way colonists treated the locals in South Africa or the way indigenous people and ex-slaves were treated in the US under Jim Crow.

For decades the Palestinians were allied to Israel's Arab neighbors against Israel.

But now Israel and its Arab neighbors have all become de facto allies against Iran. Forcing the Palestinians to ally with Iran. Thats a major change.

Both W. Bush, and Obama, were rather even handed, and expressed a desire to negotiate recognition of a Palestinian state. But Trump and Biden both seemed to have returned to favoring Israel. Probably because of this rise of Iran as a common threat to both Israel and to its Arab former adversaries (like the Saudies, Jordan, etc).

Reminds me of a bit of dark humor from The Simpsons in the episode where they went to China:

Madame Wu: "Lisa, soon you will have a Chinese baby sister who will surpass you academically."

Lisa: "I don't know about that, I'm considered pretty smart."

Madame Wu: "Well Tibet was considered 'Pretty Independent', how'd that work out?"


If I were to rewrite that punchline to fit Israel's attitude towards the Palestinians it would probably go like this:

"Well the Palestinians were considered 'Pretty Independent', how'd that work out?"

Israel is a colonizer state created by European powers at the expense of the local population of Palestine. It is built on the premise that Palestinian Jews deserve more rights than Palestinian Muslims and Christians. It is built primarily by European Jews forcing non-Jewish Palestinians from their lands at gunpoint.

The left-of-center supporter of Israel makes excuses for Israel because of guilt over persecution of Jews in the west. The right-of-center supporter of Israel does the same, while also believing Israel is a necessary bulwark against eeeeeevil Islam as well as an indispensable ally of the US in a region that is fed up with western imperialism. The (non-Jewish) right-wing supporter of Israel likes that Israel sets a precedent for the mainstream acceptability of the ethno-state built on apartheid--and it gives somewhere for Jews to go where western anti-Semites do not have to look at them. Even some pre-WWII Jewish Zionists recognized that Christian nationalists are their natural ally, since they want somewhere Jews can go live that isn't among white Christians.

For a while, I've seen Israel as being like a bully at school who never faces rightful consequences because their parents are wealthy and powerful enough to bully the teachers and administration to look the other way.

To be clear: I love Jews. I have Jewish heritage myself of which I am quite proud. I still think about converting to Judaism now and then. The fact that the Israeli government and American conservatives treat any criticism of Israel as anti-Semitism is an insult that undermines the fight against real anti-Semitism.

You can’t go around cutting down peoples olive trees and taking their land without problems.
Being anti-Zionist isn’t being anti-Semite.
https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/zionism/

I am Jewish. The only Israelis I have known personally are the Israelis that post here and my Hebrew School teacher who became a friend of the family. No problems and not enough people to judge.

As far as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict you have two groups that want the same land and are willing to fight to the death for it. I have a bias but sans tactics used and all the convoluted history, how do you logically pick a wrong side?

The more pro-Israeli US policies of late and why have already been discussed. Traditionally American public opinion has been overwhelmingly pro Israel, anti Arab/Palestinians but among younger Americans, this is reversing, even among young Jews.

I do not think favoring the Palestinians or even being anti-Zionist automatically means being bigoted against Jews. That said BDS leaders and supporters have used anti-Jewish tropes. Most notable was the mapping project supported by Boston BDS which the national national organization has distanced itself from. Making it harder has been the occasional violent blowback against Jews since the last Gaza war.

The new coalition government is concerning to me. It has big-time bigots in it. The law the The Religious Zionist party has proposed a law that could be the first steps baby steps towards a theocracy, a Jewish Iran if you will. If these proposals become law American Jewish support for Israel could melt beyond the progressives.

I know this has been a convoluted reply. But right now with antisemitism is spiking and coming at us from so many directions I am finding it hard to both make sense of it all and be rational.

I support a two-state solution. Ideally I would want the pre-1967 borders but I could also accept a stringent enforcement of the Oslo Accords, as long as Israel conceded on the need to join up Palestinian territories within the West Bank. All Palestinians without affiliation to terrorist groups should be given Israeli citizenship. Israel should take more action to ensure that all Israeli Arabs can live a life of equal opportunity with Israeli Jews; at present this is the case only on paper.

Israel is a great country, certainly the best in the region, and must be allowed to keep existing. However, illegal expansion in the West Bank, rightfully Palestinian territory, needs to stop.

Jerusalem is tricky and may require some sort of bespoke solution.

I would also support military intervention to free Gaza from the Hamas occupation. Palestinians deserve to live a life in a safe, democratic country, not one under the tyranny of terrorists.

I do consider the view that either Israel or Palestine does not have the right to exist to be fundamentally evil, although of course it is tolerable as long as it remains a mere idea. All people are entitled to self-determination. The people of Israel have chosen their country, the Palestinians of the West Bank have chosen theirs, and the Palestinians of Gaza are still hoping for self-determination in the future.

I echo Walrus.

This would be the smoothest way to peace.

If we were “isolationist” during WW II, we might see swastikas in the streets constantly.

We cannot be isolationist.