Why do people honestly hate capitalism so much now?

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magz
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22 Jan 2023, 6:37 am

Fnord wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
If there is a housing price crisis, why do they still keep the regulations?
To avoid this:
Image

I think this is black-and-white either-or kind of thinking.

Suburbs artificially kept from evolving to urban-like environments are not the same as i.e. building safety rules.

Actually, as slums tend to be illegal anyway, official regulations don't affect them much - but they may affect availability of places to live alternative to slums.


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magz
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22 Jan 2023, 7:13 am

goldfish21 wrote:
Because the rich people that have spent multi Millions or tens of Millions of dollars on their homes don't want 6 storey apartment buildings anywhere near them - NIMBY's.
Something like this is happening where my parents live - only not that much money involved.
They bought some ground and built a house some 30 years ago. Now, their house is surrounded by two 4 storey buildings.
That's life. The city sprawled to them.


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Dengashinobi
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22 Jan 2023, 8:50 am

goldfish21 wrote:
magz wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
We agree to disagree. If there is a housing price crisis, why do they still keep the regulations? If they would let anybody build, the prices would go instantly down.
Probably lobbying of those who have really big money in real estate.

Possibly some, but mostly the NIMBY rich people.. imagine paying $10-30M+ for a house, are you going to want a 6 storey apartment building anywhere within view? Or even "just," $5M. The city is caught in a catch 22 needing different housing solutions but not wanting to ruffle the feathers of the rich people here.

So far they're approving laneway home permits to increase density in the city.. people can build a second small home at the back of their property to rent out. Some of them in the city are rather small, but, they're housing. Others are a reasonable size, with some carriage houses (above a garage) being really quite spacious for an apartment above a double garage. But still, that doesn't add nearly the density that 6 storey buildings would.

I read about ONE 6 storey building getting approved and built as a cooperative that all the owners pooled to build. They had to petition the city to make it happen and it took 2 1/2 years to get a permit, so the carrying costs on the land are high before they could break ground. Not sure what area of town it's in but guaranteed it isn't in an affluent area - they'd never allow it. Everything is stupid here and done for maximum profit vs. economically built affordable homes.


People not wanting 6 storey buildings casting shadow over their house is another factor that incentivises the restrictions by the government. Politics is always personal. People will vote for policies that benefit them. The upper class of course has the means to do so. The middle class has also significant influence because of relative economic wellbeing and higher education that allows them to influence policies. It is the poor who get screwed because they are underepresented in politics. Even policies that are aimed at improving the life of the poor have a hidden motivation that benefit the middle class and the rich. And I say this from a purely libertarian point of view. State restrictions are never on the side of the poor if you pay attention closer.



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22 Jan 2023, 8:56 am

magz wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
If there is a housing price crisis, why do they still keep the regulations?
To avoid this:
Image

I think this is black-and-white either-or kind of thinking.

Suburbs artificially kept from evolving to urban-like environments are not the same as i.e. building safety rules.

Actually, as slums tend to be illegal anyway, official regulations don't affect them much - but they may affect availability of places to live alternative to slums.


Safety rules. Does a government bureaucrat know better than the individual wether a building that they are investing their life savings on is safe to live in?



magz
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22 Jan 2023, 9:07 am

Dengashinobi wrote:
Safety rules. Does a government bureaucrat know better than the individual wether a building that they are investing their life savings on is safe to live in?
Safety rules are an effect of centuries of data collected.
So, yes. Centuries of professional data collection are quite likely to contain more knowledge than an individual who wants to buy a house.
If this wasn't truth, there would be no people who lost their life savings in countless possible ways.


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22 Jan 2023, 9:14 am

somes gov't has to step in and protect its citizens, laissez-faire is just too cold blooded, IOW leave people to possibly harm themselves and just go "tsk tsk, what a dummy!" that just won't do.



magz
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22 Jan 2023, 9:17 am

Dengashinobi wrote:
People will vote for policies that benefit them. The upper class of course has the means to do so. The middle class has also significant influence because of relative economic wellbeing and higher education that allows them to influence policies. It is the poor who get screwed because they are underepresented in politics. Even policies that are aimed at improving the life of the poor have a hidden motivation that benefit the middle class and the rich. And I say this from a purely libertarian point of view. State restrictions are never on the side of the poor if you pay attention closer.
Or maybe those are not universal laws but signs of a heavily stratified, plutocratic society you're living in?


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22 Jan 2023, 10:13 am

magz wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
People will vote for policies that benefit them. The upper class of course has the means to do so. The middle class has also significant influence because of relative economic wellbeing and higher education that allows them to influence policies. It is the poor who get screwed because they are underepresented in politics. Even policies that are aimed at improving the life of the poor have a hidden motivation that benefit the middle class and the rich. And I say this from a purely libertarian point of view. State restrictions are never on the side of the poor if you pay attention closer.
Or maybe those are not universal laws but signs of a heavily stratified, plutocratic society you're living in?


I'm saying this in a more universal way. There are countless examples from every country where the working class pays taxes for services the middle class receives or has an easier access to.



magz
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22 Jan 2023, 10:27 am

Dengashinobi wrote:
magz wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
People will vote for policies that benefit them. The upper class of course has the means to do so. The middle class has also significant influence because of relative economic wellbeing and higher education that allows them to influence policies. It is the poor who get screwed because they are underepresented in politics. Even policies that are aimed at improving the life of the poor have a hidden motivation that benefit the middle class and the rich. And I say this from a purely libertarian point of view. State restrictions are never on the side of the poor if you pay attention closer.
Or maybe those are not universal laws but signs of a heavily stratified, plutocratic society you're living in?
I'm saying this in a more universal way. There are countless examples from every country where the working class pays taxes for services the middle class receives or has an easier access to.
And in every government system, corruption can happen.
And every society has some thieves.
And mental illness can happen in any family.

Is it a reason not to try to adress problems to reduce the damage they cause?


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22 Jan 2023, 1:51 pm

magz wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
magz wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
People will vote for policies that benefit them. The upper class of course has the means to do so. The middle class has also significant influence because of relative economic wellbeing and higher education that allows them to influence policies. It is the poor who get screwed because they are underepresented in politics. Even policies that are aimed at improving the life of the poor have a hidden motivation that benefit the middle class and the rich. And I say this from a purely libertarian point of view. State restrictions are never on the side of the poor if you pay attention closer.
Or maybe those are not universal laws but signs of a heavily stratified, plutocratic society you're living in?
I'm saying this in a more universal way. There are countless examples from every country where the working class pays taxes for services the middle class receives or has an easier access to.
And in every government system, corruption can happen.
And every society has some thieves.
And mental illness can happen in any family.

Is it a reason not to try to adress problems to reduce the damage they cause?


Yes I agree that we should try to fix problems. What I belive is that the best way to reduce problems is to keep government intervention as low as possible and also reinforce the rule of law.



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22 Jan 2023, 2:01 pm

Dengashinobi wrote:
What I belive is that the best way to reduce problems is to keep government intervention as low as possible and also reinforce the rule of law.


Those seem like they might be in conflict. Oversight is required to enforce rule of law, reducing oversight (aka "intervention") seems bound to result in more corruption, shadier business practices, more tax dodging, etc.

It sounds like abolish the police, but just for businesses. They consistently demonstrate they can't regulate themselves, so that might not be a viable plan.


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22 Jan 2023, 4:20 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
What I belive is that the best way to reduce problems is to keep government intervention as low as possible and also reinforce the rule of law.


Those seem like they might be in conflict. Oversight is required to enforce rule of law, reducing oversight (aka "intervention") seems bound to result in more corruption, shadier business practices, more tax dodging, etc.

It sounds like abolish the police, but just for businesses. They consistently demonstrate they can't regulate themselves, so that might not be a viable plan.


There is economic crime as there are other forms of crime. What is happening though with "policing" the economy is overreach. It's like having the police dictating you in your own privacy how to specifically do your daily activities under threat of incarceration. To the point that you have difficulties functioning as a person anymore. That's what the government is doing to the economy. There is too much intervention. It's not like "abolish the police", it's more like "send the police after crminals, not after law abiding citizens".



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22 Jan 2023, 4:30 pm

I'm late to this discussion, so somebody may have already chimed in with what I'm about to say.
I think the primary reason why people hate capitalism today is because fewer and fewer people benefit from the free market. At one time, the American dream could be realized when business provided workers with a livable wage and benefits. But that had only been because labor had successfully pressured business into doing so. Since the Reagan revolution, with its supply side economics, and the crackdown on labor's power, business people have reaped the rewards of capitalism, but working people have fallen behind and the middle class has shrunk. Today, business' talk of "just work a little harder," and "a rising tide raises all boats," has proven to ring hollow. More and more, capitalism looks like a con job being played on the rest of us.


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22 Jan 2023, 6:07 pm

Dengashinobi wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
What I belive is that the best way to reduce problems is to keep government intervention as low as possible and also reinforce the rule of law.


Those seem like they might be in conflict. Oversight is required to enforce rule of law, reducing oversight (aka "intervention") seems bound to result in more corruption, shadier business practices, more tax dodging, etc.

It sounds like abolish the police, but just for businesses. They consistently demonstrate they can't regulate themselves, so that might not be a viable plan.


There is economic crime as there are other forms of crime. What is happening though with "policing" the economy is overreach. It's like having the police dictating you in your own privacy how to specifically do your daily activities under threat of incarceration. To the point that you have difficulties functioning as a person anymore. That's what the government is doing to the economy. There is too much intervention. It's not like "abolish the police", it's more like "send the police after crminals, not after law abiding citizens".


Can you demonstrate this is objectively the situation, or should I just accept it's an ideological position?


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22 Jan 2023, 8:39 pm

Dengashinobi wrote:
magz wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
If there is a housing price crisis, why do they still keep the regulations?
To avoid this:
Image
I think this is black-and-white either-or kind of thinking.  Suburbs artificially kept from evolving to urban-like environments are not the same as i.e. building safety rules.  Actually, as slums tend to be illegal anyway, official regulations don't affect them much - but they may affect availability of places to live alternative to slums.
Safety rules. Does a government bureaucrat know better than the individual whether a building that they are investing their life savings on is safe to live in?
Building Safety Inspectors do.  "Building to Code" is a common practice in the 'States, while throwing together some cinder blocks and corrugated metal next to the same stream used for drinking water and sewerage disposal is more common elsewhere.


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22 Jan 2023, 10:08 pm

Quote:
A centrally planned economy is completely unable to allocate resources correctly. It has to keep thousands of bureaucrats to keep track of all needs of the people while simultaneously properly calculate the amount of each resource allocate to each need. This inability resulted in a tremendous waste of resources. For example, they would produce more yogurt than ice cream. But people want ice cream instead of yogurt. So you have a lot of people not getting what they want and a lot of yogurt that nobody wants and it is left to rot. Now multiply that with the billions of products consumers need in an economy and you have a total mess.


I applaud your knowledge of theory. You are sort of right.
In theory you are correct.
Milton Freedman was a person who was proposing a theory. Make note that his theory never existed in practice at all, so assuming what Milton Freedman says is actually now in reality is not a good idea, because its a theory he wants implemented, but it never existed. It might exist in the future.

Central based planning is bureaucratic nightmare and it is hard to plan. You are right that people get too much of one thing and not of certain necessities.

However then you go on saying that Capitalism is not wasteful, and I think anyone who has ever worked for any company will tell you this is certainly not a law. In fact being wasteful is not against Capitalist logic.
I recently worked for 2 companies and they were very wasteful with food. Everything they did not sell went to the trash. Enough to feed whole battalion worth of people and they throw this food away every SINGLE day.

If a company produces 100 million trendy pairs of shoes in East Asia using cheap labor and ships this commodity to US and it flops on the market and only some of it gets sold, because competition was better do you think these shoes go to heaven or something? No, they just get stored and thrown away into landfills or burned. Or in better case get sold to a different market and reshiped.
That being said the company has no way of knowing if they sell the shoes. They just put out a massive marketing campaign and hope it sells. If it does all is good. If it does not it just goes to waste.