26 Mar 2023, 5:31 am
Personally, realising The Truth that there is no intrinsic meaning in life puts an end to existential anxiety.
It is like the acceptance of death of a partner/family-member:
Denial, anger, depression, sadness, and acceptance.
It is as simple as that if one accepts the reality of life.
There is life after indoctrinated mythos.
It is simply a hard "swim" to get to the other side.
Cognitive dissonance is a biatch.
This is an interesting point but I can't help but feel like the acceptance of the meaningless of life is more of an ultimate end-goal, because you could accept the meaningless of life and culturally imposed narratives and end up in a perpetuated state of ennui/discontentment?
It COULD be a "Your Mileage May Vary" situation, but for me personally, it brings peace of mind.
But then, I will probably be dead within 20 years.
But as I said, there is life beyond a false meaning instilled by indoctrination.
As a hardcore atheist, I can easily use the analogy of being a committed Christian only to find it was all pretence.
I was a theist and can speak from experience.
Though many would think I don't deserve it, I have a great deal of self-esteem and self-confidence.
These and emotional discipline and a desire to maintain personal integrity are all interrelated.
And despite popular belief, I don't have any measurable ego.
I have no need to measure my accomplishments or abilities against others.
"I don't have to be the smartest person in the room."
I see all these "manmade" benchmarks for meaning/success amusing and self-limiting.
Personally, I see this desire for personal bliss a human oddity, and dare I say, laughable.
After all, isn't it simply the result of chemical reactions in the brain, and where is the glory of that?
If it comes your way, fine...
If it doesn't, fine too...
I have never taken illicit drugs to prove my point, not that I have a problem with others who have.
I have never been goal-oriented.
Speak for yourself.
We are at different places in life.
My process of self-actualisation is pretty much over, not that I plan to end it.
And after 40 years of gang-stalking, simple peace is a blessing.
For me, being True to myself and others.
Simples.
I don't need to meditate, btw.
I think most ppl take themselves too seriously.
Anyway, I might finish replying some other time.
One last thing:
"To each their own."
Rexi
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26 Mar 2023, 8:51 am
This is an interesting point but I can't help but feel like the acceptance of the meaningless of life is more of an ultimate end-goal, because you could accept the meaningless of life and culturally imposed narratives and end up in a perpetuated state of ennui/discontentment?
When you remove 'intrinsic meaning', don't you fill the void with other forms of the same thing? Self-love, a good job, hobbies/passions, romance etc. These are all things that give our lives meaning, aren't they? We can't achieve perpetual euphoria naturally by doing nothing meaningful. .
I might be a buddhist monk, who knows, but these things to me have been worthless.
I achieved euphoria by doing none and actually nothing which can be argued to be my meaning seeking, but it's just restful and destressing.
I'd be still thinking about the kid falling in the middle of all this unnecessary happiness and my unhelpful hopes.
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Rexi
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26 Mar 2023, 9:26 am
When it comes to the desire to have children that seems to apply to the vast majority of people, I feel like there are obviously social factors at work that influence people's positive views on raising a family. We are taught that specific pursuits (love and sex, having a high income, raising children etc) are what give our lives meaning as set paths are already paved for us by our culture.
Yep.
A lot of this procreation nonsense is simple societal indoctrination/brainwashing.
Some ppl find out too late about the trickery involved.
In Nazis Germany, Hitler awarded medals to women with multiple children for his Machiavellian plans.
It is a con.
A VERY nasty con-job.
Well, since an intrinsic meaning is a myth, most ppl won't find the meaning/reason they are after.
Those that do are simply fooling themselves, imo.
Personally, realising The Truth that there is no intrinsic meaning in life puts an end to existential anxiety.
It is like the acceptance of death of a partner/family-member:
Denial, anger, depression, sadness, and acceptance.
It is as simple as that if one accepts the reality of life.
There is life after indoctrinated mythos.
It is simply a hard "swim" to get to the other side.
Cognitive dissonance is a biatch.
There are always unenlightened ppl who think they are better than you because you have different values.
Why should anyone give a crap about the views of uneducated ppl?
I certainly don't.
The problem is, when you "shake" their "Tree of meaning", if they are insecure in their beliefs, they will resent you, hound you, and possibly kill you while defending their illusory sense of meaning.
Some ppl are rational, logical thinkers...
And some embrace instincts and emotionalism to feed their feelings.
In essence, they are emotional junkies that are hooked on certain chemical reactions in the brain.
Think in terms of FarCry 5 where communities are addicted to the drug "Bliss".
I love this response so much, but I wanna bring up one point I found pretty unique and interesting.
It is like the acceptance of death of a partner/family-member:
Denial, anger, depression, sadness, and acceptance.
It is as simple as that if one accepts the reality of life.
There is life after indoctrinated mythos.
It is simply a hard "swim" to get to the other side.
Cognitive dissonance is a biatch.
This is an interesting point but I can't help but feel like the acceptance of the meaningless of life is more of an ultimate end-goal, because you could accept the meaningless of life and culturally imposed narratives and end up in a perpetuate state of ennui/discontentment?
When you remove 'intrinsic meaning', don't you fill the void with other forms of the same thing? Self-love, a good job, hobbies/passions, romance etc. These are all things that give our lives meaning, aren't they? It's pleasure that comes from achievement, which many people live by, otherwise how do you find happiness?
Realizing how much freedom you have is a weird thing. Most people, religious or not are passionately devoted to one ideology or another which ultimately gives us meaning. We become devoted to things without realizing the true nature of that devotion, so how do you find peace and happiness living a life of total non-attachment?
When you force kids into this world you take care of them but ultimately they will be forced to swim on their own in an unpredictable climate where their basic needs are less likely to be met.
Only 38% of Americans claim to be satisfied with their lives according to a gallup poll, and loneliness has reportedly doubled since the 1980s, and depression has reportedly risen by 5% (38% vs 33%) since 9/11 and this trend is very likely to continue, so we have plenty of data on our side to support the validity of an antinatalist worldview.
Meaning in life, or whether there even is such a thing, will always be personal.
For the atheist, it’s either “there is no afterlife, therefore there is no purpose,” or it’s “this is all there is, so make it count.” So either what happens between birth and death counts for absolutely nothing, or it’s absolutely EVERYTHING.
When you add religion to the equation, you often get that there is no meaning in life except your plans for when you check out. Though I believe in God, I don’t feel as though I’m doing myself or the world any favors by choosing to suffer only for the hope of the hereafter. The apparent meaninglessness of life seems to only be a license for toxic people and manipulators to get what they want at the expense of the gullible who forfeit their right to live well. I would say for the atheist who claims the idea of meaninglessness it’s a confining existence.
It’s not that there is any single universal meaning or purpose. I think if there is such a meaning or purpose, it is for us to decide for ourselves what that should be.
On the topic of anti-natalism, I would argue that true belief is reflected in action. I don’t suggest that violence and terrorism is ever the way to go, but those things reflect a sincere if fanatical view that the world should exist as the terrorist believes it should. It is the logical extreme of a worldview.
The logical extreme of antinatalism need not be terrorism, but could possibly take some form of actively working to stop people from breeding. Talking about it and reasoning with people is a good start. But reason is no good if nothing gets DONE. I’m not convinced that antinatalism is reasonable, nor do I think many other people will find it reasonable. If you cannot reasonably convince people to stop breeding, you have no leg to stand on.
Antinatalism is an inherently dead idea. All you can do is say YOU don’t want more kids in the world and choose not to have children yourself. Once you’re dead, there’s no 1-to-1 replacement for you, just a tiny minority of folks who don’t want kids, either.
Organized groups of antinatalists have existed. Remember the Shakers? They kept their numbers up by adopting/fostering kids and indoctrinating them into their lifestyle. I believe there are only 3 Shakers still living.
I don’t think being anti-birth means being celibate like the Shakers. But then you do realistically have to confront early sterilization and rigid avoidance of conception and pregnancy. It doesn’t matter whether abortion is on the table or not, it’s a strict no-birth policy. Once all your antinatalists are gone, who’s going to be left to spread the idea? Just…meh…young people who don’t want children.
Also…is there an end-goal to antinatalist thinking? In other words, is there an ideal max population, specifically of minority children alive at a given time? What happens to antinatalists once they achieve their goals? Do they stop working to keep people from breeding? Do they decide MAYBE to change their minds and have children for the sake of continuing the species?
I’m more of the line of thinking of just do what feels right and let evolution/nature handle the rest. If we really are overpopulating, there will be some vaccine resistant form of airborne human immunodeficiency flurona virus that will take most of us out and only leaving those of us with genetic traits or behaviors that avoid infection. I never could figure out why it is India reports far fewer COVID deaths and infections than the USA yet has a much higher population living in closer quarters. My opinion is that one factor is increased natural immunity due to more exposure to illnesses in the past among a larger, disadvantaged population.
The human ability to maintain and support large populations is an evolutionary advantage. Cicadas are largely at a disadvantage due to fungal infections and large number of predators. They thrive as a species due almost entirely through emerging in large numbers.
Since large numbers are an evolutionary advantage rather than a liability in most cases, I’m concerned what the true motivations of antinatalism really are. The choice to not breed is a personal one, and I do not presume to say someone is wrong to choose to remain childless. How does one conclude that people should stop having children? Where does your information come from? How did you decide having children of your own was a bad thing? Did someone tell you children were always difficult? Are you a victim of your own bad experiences as a child? Did someone indoctrinate you with the idea that having children is bad without giving you the opportunity to explore the positives of having children? Do you simply hate children, ALL children, or do you resent anyone or everyone for their success as parents?
It's everything but that doesn't mean I'll be getting desperate over some things.
But that means decisions in the world are very important.
I don't forfeit my choices.
Anti-natalism is not supposed to extremely lean into terrorism. Not birthing is different from killing people. Death usually is very painful to friends. Pain makes people avoid painful things.
Nope, the logical extreme is rather contraception or abstinence, if we're talking about extremes.
"is there an end-goal to antinatalist thinking?" - for suffering to end. If such a future were possible because humans breed a lot, then the children won't be dragged into the world, the adults won't be having to get through every stage and torture of life, and be bothered by insignificant joys and toys.
Inexistence is priceless, I used to think about how many benefits it implies.
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Rexi
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26 Mar 2023, 9:35 am
"Once you’re dead, there’s no 1-to-1 replacement for you, just a tiny minority of folks who don’t want kids, either." - i think the breeders replace me with other antinatalist eventually without me having to spend my health on breeding, but the point is not that. The point is anti natalists don't want to even be birthed, so multiplying as an antinatalist would be wrong.
"Do they decide MAYBE to change their minds and have children for the sake of continuing the species?" - once we were talking about it: if me and pepe were the last humans on earth we wouldn't breed. It's our duty to prevent it. The species would end with us.
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Rexi
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26 Mar 2023, 10:05 am
How does one conclude that people should stop having children? Where does your information come from? - the head. In my youth I have started thinking about inexistence, a fascinating concept. Back then I did not know it had a word, and I would pray to God instead of heaven when I die I would like to be wiped from existence in the past and never recreated, and be allowed to not exist, and I had a big fear of reincarnation because that would ruin my plans. I was basically negotiating my future 'heaven'.
How did you decide having children of your own was a bad thing? - i looked at myself and my needs and choices i have
Did someone tell you children were always difficult? - the opposite, i was a very observant person and I knew when I seen it that I wouldn't like it. I didn't have young siblings either.
Are you a victim of your own bad experiences as a child? - bad experiences are part of life so can't avoid them. Autism makes everything harder
Did someone indoctrinate you with the idea that having children is bad without giving you the opportunity to explore the positives of having children? - no, the opposite. I had barely found out when I discussed the topic with mom recently she actually would have wanted to have a choice but she made the wrong one, she was dead set on not talking about it
Do you simply hate children, ALL children, or do you resent anyone or everyone for their success as parents? - breeders are generally bad parents, in rare cases there are decent ones. I laugh at their self inflicted misfortune and sometimes feel for them. Their entitlement and superiority flex in society is annoying.
Children are innocent but sociopathic. There's nothing to talk to children about, their brains aren't developed, the activity is like solitary confinement, or maddening with stress and energy to care of and smell their smells constantly. It seems like you're being held back in time. They don't deserve to suffer, either way.
I took care of my niece together with mom and after a week I felt like I was losing my mind. You just know it's not a fascinating ordeal, and run like hell. Apparently she liked me more than mom, mom was a problem person so yeah. Never again.
Took care of a toddler a few hours, it was crazy, doing the same things with her for hours because she liked those games. Toddler games are not fun. Participating isn't fun either. Got pizza on my clothes and she snuck her hands into my purse. None of that was a good event. I was like 'what are you doing in my purse?' and she took her hands away. I never stepped foot in their house again. I will remember the events until after death.
First time I smiled at a baby it cried. First time I looked at a toddler it tried to ruin my new shoes. I didn't use to buy new shoes. I have natural antinatalist talents, what can I say. I was born for the job
I don't like most human beans, once I get to know them there's something that would make it too difficult for me to hang out, physically or mentally. Alone I can focus and take proper care of myself because people try to change what I do when with them. There are also illness concerns with some unhygienic people who eat off the ground like grandma. Bad girl.
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FlaminPika
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27 Mar 2023, 8:27 pm
Rexi
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28 Mar 2023, 5:34 am
My view is it's best if everyone is an antinatalist, to end suffering for good, and that some freedoms are mistakes, though necessary.
Antinatalists or the state have no right to confine unhelpful belief people and it wouldn't work anyway as we know what happens when people are pushed against their will, they will escape or find ways to breed. However china laws were helpful to limit breeding.
Education/study is important so that people are aware of as many things as possible.
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31 Mar 2023, 4:34 am
Rexi
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31 Mar 2023, 6:36 am
Antinatalists or the state have no right to confine unhelpful belief people and it wouldn't work anyway as we know what happens when people are pushed against their will, they will escape or find ways to breed. However china laws were helpful to limit breeding.
Education/study is important so that people are aware of as many things as possible.
Agreed.
Freedom of choice even if the decision may not be a good one.
It depends on a person's priority set.
Yes, they unfortunately learn from mistakes too late.
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31 Mar 2023, 6:38 am
Rexi
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05 Apr 2023, 1:50 pm
Antinatalists or the state have no right to confine unhelpful belief people and it wouldn't work anyway as we know what happens when people are pushed against their will, they will escape or find ways to breed. However china laws were helpful to limit breeding.
Education/study is important so that people are aware of as many things as possible.
Agreed.
Freedom of choice even if the decision may not be a good one.
It depends on a person's priority set.
Yes, they unfortunately learn from mistakes too late.
IIRC, at least a 1/3 of children born were the result of an accident.
That's pretty big. Some of the rest will be conceived without much thought. Just because "it's what follows," "it's the age," etc.
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AngelRho
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08 Apr 2023, 5:05 am
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