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techstepgenr8tion
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03 Oct 2023, 9:59 pm

An interesting discussion on some of the specifics of the destruction of social capital.


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03 Oct 2023, 10:30 pm

Did not watch the video (yet), but read the comments.

No one seemed to address an issue that contributes to the loss of "Third Spaces"; that is, homelessness.

Whenever homeless people take over bike paths, libraries, and public parks in Anaheim, it takes the city government over a year to respond, and another year to clean it all up.  In the meantime, teens turn away from these places and take up on-line socializing.

Sure, they could go to Disneyland ($100+ per day per person), or to the downtown area near the Harbor and Katella intersection (average meal for one: $30), but panhandling is a problem there, too.

Sadly, the anti-loitering laws that were intended to be used to control the homeless population are also being used to control the non-homeless teen population.

Where I live now, there are no public libraries.  Access to community centers (basketball courts, et cetera) is possible, however, and those areas are almost constantly patrolled, but they are mostly used by church groups and for civic functions.


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04 Oct 2023, 2:07 am

I ran across this notion back in the Nineties. In opinion columns in Psychology Today, and other venues.

The notion is that folks go from the suffocating womb of the home straight to the heartless rat race of the workplace without respite in between. No "third place".

Sounds reasonable. I even floated that notion in a conversation with someone..I suggested thats why folks hangout in bars... or go to church...to find a third place...a community. The person laughed when I uttered the word "bars" and "church" in the same sentence for some reason. :lol:

But both church'synagogue/mosque and the Cheers Bar are places where "everyone knows your name". :D



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04 Oct 2023, 9:38 am

Fnord wrote:
Whenever homeless people take over bike paths, libraries, and public parks in Anaheim,

"Take over"? How? Merely by being there?

Fnord wrote:
it takes the city government over a year to respond, and another year to clean it all up.  In the meantime, teens turn away from these places and take up on-line socializing.

I am disgusted by this scapegoating of the most powerless people in society.

Fnord wrote:
Sadly, the anti-loitering laws that were intended to be used to control the homeless population are also being used to control the non-homeless teen population.

Instead of anti-"loitering" laws, how about giving homeless people someplace to go? How about some dormlike buildings with small single private rooms just big enough to hold a cot and a few suitcases, with doors that lock, so the inhabitants can't steal from each other?

IMO, there shouldn't be laws against "loitering," but there should be laws against harassing passers-by. And, yes, such laws should be enforced against housed teenagers (some of whom do, in fact, harass passers-by) as well as against homeless people.


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techstepgenr8tion
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04 Oct 2023, 9:42 am

Toward the end of the video the guy did surprise me a bit, got into a level of woke and anti-capitalist discussion that I worried would switch most listeners off - thought about deleting the thread for a moment but I realized that the rest of what he was saying made sense and was still valuable enough to share (and if anyone would jump on that specific thing to the extent of drowning the rest of the topic perhaps it isn't their conversation).

What I do worry about - if we are living in a world where everything is cutthroat competition it seems like third spaces would be winnowed from both sides, ie. from the side of people being too busy to go to them but also people bringing status races and all kinds of other toxicity to those places where people wouldn't want to go there anymore on those grounds.

On the homeless problem - there's something really nasty going on with that. I've at least watched a couple dozen netizen reporting videos on how major cities get billions of dollars for homelessness, the local politicians start getting really nice houses, bonuses, etc., and the homeless shelters and food pantries keep getting worse. I worry that this will hit everything, not just with homelessness and corrupt politicians but that these ethos will flood into any place where people have fiduciary obligations to hold up.


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aghogday
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04 Oct 2023, 1:45 pm



SMiLes, Considering in Attaining 3 College Degrees; Including, Anthropology,
Social Sciences Interdisciplinary, And Health Science, Way Back in 1983, at the University
of West Florida, Having Dr Ray Oldenburg As A Professor, Teaching A Class on 'Sociology of The Family;'

Interestingly too, A Class my Mother and Sister Also took When i Did Pursuing Their Degrees in Social Work;

i Surely Am Familiar With the Human Conundrum of the Loss of What Oldenburg Coined As 'Third Places' Out of Home

And Work, Like 'Cheers' and Church; Where At Best, Everyone Is Welcome And Knows Your Name, Where it Feels Like

Family Away From Family, Where Strangers Become Family, So Warm With Oxytocin Healing too; God Yes,

Both
Life Pain
And Anxiety
As Science Clearly
Shows the Benefit of this
Neurohormone of Healing

Third Places Bring For those Fully Humanly Engaged Yet

What is So True is; It's Not the Place; Yet the Engagement

or Human Beings Socially That Make A Third Place Real;

i've Surely Been to Eating Establishments, Bars, Dance Halls,

And Even Neighborhoods Where This is possible; Yet There Are

Others As Cold As Freezers Where Humans Are Distant and Aloof;

Hehe, Whataburger Will Surely Be Warmer Than A Super High Class Restaurant.

SMiLes, 'Third Places' are right up my 'Alley' As A Federal Employee Working At and Managing a Military

Bowling Center for 18 Years, Seeing an Entire Generation Grow Up Warmly in Human Connections

And Watching Older Generations Pass Away, Knowing So Much About Their Lives; As While i Didn't

Talk that Much Then, i Listened to Likely Over a Hundred Thousand Stories of Human Lives So Diverse;

Yet So Warm And True;

A Person Who is Warm

And Friendly Can and Will
Make Any Place They Go to Regularly A Real
Third Place Where Strangers Become FRiEnDS;

As i Grow Older, i Gain More and More Warm Skills
in the Real World to Do This, Even in a 'Trump Town USA;'

It's Easy You Just Do What Civilized People in the 'Real World' Do;

You Leave Out

The Politics

And Religion and Do Human Instead, Even in Church to Fit in There too;

There Are Other Avenues for Politics, Religion, And Philosophy Hehe...

It's True The Internet is Better Than Nothing to find 'Third Places'

Yet Emphasis

on Better than Nothing Indeed;

Takes A Lot of Effort and Thick Skin...

Back When i Knew Oldenburg He Was 50 Years-Old;

And Dear Lord, He Looked So Old Then; He talked

About Living Forever And Melancholically How Dreary Life Would Be

As His Peers Were already Bored of Living; He Lasted 40 More Years;

My Life Didn't even Really Start Until age 53; Always A Beginner Forever
is Never boring to me now...

Most Every where i go

A Stranger Becomes

A New FRiEnD

As Long as i continue to Return in the 'Real World' At Least;

So Much More Than Words, the Presence of Positive Energy does create and make...

i Find Kind People Everywhere i Go; Better Put, They Find me too; Birds of A Feather, Fair Weather Indeed..:)



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04 Oct 2023, 6:49 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Whenever homeless people take over bike paths, libraries, and public parks in Anaheim,
"Take over"? How? Merely by being there?
Yes, and by dealing drugs, soliciting for sex, panhandling, and threatening "intruders" with violence if the "intruders" don't leave the homeless person's "property".
Mona Pereth wrote:
Fnord wrote:
it takes the city government over a year to respond, and another year to clean it all up.  In the meantime, teens turn away from these places and take up on-line socializing.
I am disgusted by this scapegoating of the most powerless people in society.
I am disgusted that you call "scapegoating" that which is merely the pointing out of facts.
Mona Pereth wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Sadly, the anti-loitering laws that were intended to be used to control the homeless population are also being used to control the non-homeless teen population.
Instead of anti-"loitering" laws, how about giving homeless people someplace to go? How about some dormlike buildings with small single private rooms just big enough to hold a cot and a few suitcases, with doors that lock, so the inhabitants can't steal from each other? IMO, there shouldn't be laws against "loitering," but there should be laws against harassing passers-by. And, yes, such laws should be enforced against housed teenagers (some of whom do, in fact, harass passers-by) as well as against homeless people.
Expecting people residing in an illegal squatters' encampment to not harass passers-by reveals your situational naïveté.


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04 Oct 2023, 8:40 pm

Fnord wrote:
Expecting people residing in an illegal squatters' encampment to not harass passers-by reveals your situational naïveté.

It reflects my personal experience. Right here in my neighborhood, and in many parts of NYC, we certainly have our share of panhandlers. But the vast majority of them don't keep pestering people who ignore them. And a large majority of them are too elderly to be capable of much physical violence, while quite a few others are physically disabled in obvious ways, e.g. amputees.

I'm not afraid of them, and I'm a soon-to-be old lady myself. Surely housed teenagers can be taught to take care of themselves.

And, no, I don't live in a privileged bubble. I live in a rent-stabilized apartment. (I'd be homeless myself without the existence of rent stabilization.) And, like many New Yorkers, I don't have a car. To do most of my errands, I either walk or take public transportation. So I can't avoid running into panhandlers, both on sidewalks and on subways.

Wherever there are large homeless "encampments," their existence reflects both a shortage of housing and a lack of viable shelters. By viable shelters, I mean (1) having small single rooms with doors having deadbolt locks, so that people's belongings can be safe, and (2) being located near places where people can access needed services and, if they are young enough and able-bodied, find jobs.

The existence of "homeless encampments" should be taken as an urgent signal of the need both for more affordable housing and for more viable shelters. Any response to their existence that does not center around the question of how to provide more affordable housing and/or viable shelters is cruel and heartless, IMO.


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04 Oct 2023, 10:52 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
On the homeless problem - there's something really nasty going on with that. I've at least watched a couple dozen netizen reporting videos on how major cities get billions of dollars for homelessness, the local politicians start getting really nice houses, bonuses, etc., and the homeless shelters and food pantries keep getting worse.

Have any of these netizen videos done detailed documented research on actual local government finances and spending, as distinct from just jumping to cherry-picked conclusions based on, say, juxtaposing an image of some politician's nice-looking house vs. an image of an ugly-looking homeless shelter? If any of these videos are indeed well-documented, could you maybe post them here? (Or, better yet, post well-documented print articles, whose quality of research would be easier to judge than that of a video?)

Government corruption is a real problem that needs to be dealt with. But it isn't a reason to ditch badly-needed social programs. It's a reason to investigate and press charges against corrupt politicians.

Right here in my neighborhood, local politicians getting arrested on various corruption charges seems to happen fairly often. Investigative journalism, both professional and amateur, can hopefully help with pressuring local governments to prosecute corrupt local politicians.

As for whether "the homeless shelters and food pantries keep getting worse," I would suspect that they fluctuate from year to year, depending on (among other things) who is in office. This is something that varies a lot by locale.


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05 Oct 2023, 12:47 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Toward the end of the video the guy did surprise me a bit, got into a level of woke and anti-capitalist discussion that I worried would switch most listeners off - thought about deleting the thread for a moment but I realized that the rest of what he was saying made sense and was still valuable enough to share (and if anyone would jump on that specific thing to the extent of drowning the rest of the topic perhaps it isn't their conversation).

I think it would be less of a turnoff to most WP members than the extreme right wing orientation of some of the other sources you've linked to sometimes.

Anyhow, back to the main topic of this thread:

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
What I do worry about - if we are living in a world where everything is cutthroat competition it seems like third spaces would be winnowed from both sides, ie. from the side of people being too busy to go to them but also people bringing status races and all kinds of other toxicity to those places where people wouldn't want to go there anymore on those grounds.

There are steps that group leaders can take to keep the latter problems under control, if the leaders are aware and care enough to do so (and are experienced enough to know what they are doing).


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05 Oct 2023, 4:46 am

I have been homeless, and thus experienced nearly every aspect thereof, so nothing you say could ever erase those experiences from my memory.

I know first-hand what homelessness is like, and why it exists; but too many people read their textbooks and assume that what they have learned while sitting in a classroom accurately reflects the realities of homelessness.

Others look out the window, see a few panhandlers on the street-corner, and assume to know everything there is to know about homelessness.

Others look at a few YouTube videos, appoint themselves experts, and assume to know everything there is to know about homelessness.

I have actually been homeless, so I know first-hand that all the book-learning, all the observation, and all the YouTube videos in the world get it all wrong, each and every time.

The trouble is that the people who can do something about homelessness only listen to the book-learners, the window-lookers, and the video watchers without ever once considering what the homeless people themselves have to say about it.

This is much the same way that autism "experts" listen only to themselves and each other without ever consulting a real autistic person.


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05 Oct 2023, 5:30 am

I have known people who were or have been homeless. My current life partner was homeless for a while, on a couple of occasions. Also, in the past, I have been friends with some people who lived in shelters. So, no, I don't just know about it from textbooks, videos, or seeing a few panhandlers on the street corner.

As for the causes of homelessness, the main one is obvious to anyone who has bothered to look at current market-rate rents. Whatever other causes homelessness may have, the main one is obviously a shortage of housing in areas where there are also jobs, places to buy food and other necessities, and needed government services.

And the main cause of the housing shortage, in turn, is restrictive zoning laws. Without a loosening of zoning laws in high-demand areas, any other approach to solving the housing crisis is at best a game of musical chairs.


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05 Oct 2023, 2:12 pm

Fnord wrote:
I have been homeless, and thus experienced nearly every aspect thereof,

How long ago? Back when you were in your twenties? Back in the 1980's, or perhaps even the late 1970's?

Things have changed a lot since then.

Back around 1980, housing was plentiful (at least for white people) and cheap, almost everywhere. The era of white flight had just barely come to an end, and gentrification had just barely begun.

So, back then, it may well have been accurate to say that the majority of homeless people were drunks and druggies, and that most others were people who had been let out of mental hospitals and infamous institutions like Willowbrook, with nowhere to go.

As I said, things have changed a lot since then.


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