Hamas attack exposes bankruptcy of the far left and right

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Nades
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24 Oct 2023, 9:32 am

The_Walrus wrote:
"The left" is a complex thing (but then all things are). I'm assuming Dox is using it to refer to far-left people who are outside or on the fringes of mainstream politics. I think it's fair to say that there are lots of apologiae for Hamas from these groups.

I think a lot of big leftist subreddits actually have the exact opposite problem to inactive mod teams - they have mod teams who will actively ban people who aren't bought into their ideology. Places like /r/GenZedong or /r/GreenAndPleasant for example actively ban anyone they suspect of being a "lib".

As for the hospital - Hamas fairly regularly fire low-quality rockets into Israel. A sizeable portion of these rockets (about 20%) land in Gaza. The alleged Israeli strike on a Gaza hospital seems to be one of them - the damage is not consistent with an Israeli airstrike, but is consistent with a Hamas rocket.


That many dead from a rocket built in a shed is a lot but I also doubt Israel would bomb a hospital while the world was watching them.



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24 Oct 2023, 9:33 am

The_Walrus wrote:
As for the hospital - Hamas fairly regularly fire low-quality rockets into Israel. A sizeable portion of these rockets (about 20%) land in Gaza. The alleged Israeli strike on a Gaza hospital seems to be one of them - the damage is not consistent with an Israeli airstrike, but is consistent with a Hamas rocket.


I think that is the general consensus here of members who have spoken on the matter ( although it wasn't technically Hamas ).


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Mona Pereth
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24 Oct 2023, 10:42 am

The_Walrus wrote:
"The left" is a complex thing (but then all things are). I'm assuming Dox is using it to refer to far-left people who are outside or on the fringes of mainstream politics. I think it's fair to say that there are lots of apologiae for Hamas from these groups.

Perhaps Dox can clarify what type of leftist he is referring to.

Anyhow, my point was that I am under the impression that there are a lot more far-leftists per capita (as well as a lot more far-rightists per capita too) in the Pacific Northwest than here in NYC. I'm under the impression that most people aren't nearly as polarized here in NYC as they are in many other parts of the U.S.A., although we do have some far-leftists and far-rightists here too.

The_Walrus wrote:
I think a lot of big leftist subreddits actually have the exact opposite problem to inactive mod teams - they have mod teams who will actively ban people who aren't bought into their ideology. Places like /r/GenZedong or /r/GreenAndPleasant for example actively ban anyone they suspect of being a "lib".

That too would make them non-representative of the left as a whole, if they are limited to one sectarian ideology.

Anyhow, here in NYC, in real life at least, far-leftists have little choice but to cooperate with the more left-leaning "libs," if they want to attract enough popular support to get anything done.

EDIT: My impressions are based on (1) various people I've known over the years, via my intermittent involvement in left-leaning political activism of various kinds, and (2) my current set of acquaintances, revolving mainly around the local autistic community plus my chat groups, plus also some miscellaneous people I've spoken to about politics in-person. (I don't discuss politics with most of my neighbors.)

I currently know only one person who fits Dox's characterization of the typical leftist. I also know a couple of people who describe themselves as "far left," yet who, in fact, are quite moderate compared to Dox's characterization of what he thinks the typical leftist is like. Most of my acquaintances (or, at least, most of those with whom I've discussed politics at all) are left-leaning.

It seems to me that NYC just isn't nearly as much of a magnet for political extremists, of whatever stripe, as the West Coast generally seems to be, as far as I can tell.


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24 Oct 2023, 10:31 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
It seems to me that NYC just isn't nearly as much of a magnet for political extremists, of whatever stripe, as the West Coast generally seems to be, as far as I can tell.


Did you somehow miss that DSA rally downtown immediately after the Hamas attack?

I think the critical difference is that you're a normie and I'm a political junkie, I'm just going to see a lot of stuff that's going to go right over or under you without you noticing, and I'm unwilling to hold your hand and do your research for you when none of this stuff is hard to find.


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Dox47
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24 Oct 2023, 10:34 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
"The left" is a complex thing (but then all things are). I'm assuming Dox is using it to refer to far-left people who are outside or on the fringes of mainstream politics. I think it's fair to say that there are lots of apologiae for Hamas from these groups..


They're less fringe that you'd hope, they've thoroughly penetrated the academic class in the US, and mau mau many students into falling in line with them. FNORD posted a poll in another thread showing some of the downstream effects, which are disheartening.


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Mona Pereth
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24 Oct 2023, 11:32 pm

Dox47 wrote:
I think the critical difference is that you're a normie and I'm a political junkie,

I'm hardly a "normie." I've been intermittently involved in various kinds of political activism over the years, starting with being an early GLBT rights activist when I was in college.

Dox47 wrote:
I'm just going to see a lot of stuff that's going to go right over or under you without you noticing,

Perhaps so, but you may still be overestimating how representative it is.

All kinds of things can be found here in NYC. You name it, you can probably find at least one person who is into it. Doesn't necessarily mean it's popular or influential among the millions of people here, or even among the elites.

EDIT: Regarding the DSA rally, see The Divisions in DSA by Harold Meyerson, October 17, 2023:

Quote:
Liberals and leftists who have long championed Palestinian statehood and Israel’s total withdrawal from the West Bank, and who now oppose the obliteration of Gaza that Israel is threatening, found DSA’s promotion of what was effectively a pro-Hamas rally in Times Square to be outrageous. They found the initial failure of DSA’s national political committee to condemn Hamas correspondingly repugnant.

That’s also been the reaction of many DSA members, too.


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26 Oct 2023, 11:00 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
"The left" is a complex thing (but then all things are). I'm assuming Dox is using it to refer to far-left people who are outside or on the fringes of mainstream politics. I think it's fair to say that there are lots of apologiae for Hamas from these groups.

Perhaps Dox can clarify what type of leftist he is referring to.

Anyhow, my point was that I am under the impression that there are a lot more far-leftists per capita (as well as a lot more far-rightists per capita too) in the Pacific Northwest than here in NYC. I'm under the impression that most people aren't nearly as polarized here in NYC as they are in many other parts of the U.S.A., although we do have some far-leftists and far-rightists here too.

The_Walrus wrote:
I think a lot of big leftist subreddits actually have the exact opposite problem to inactive mod teams - they have mod teams who will actively ban people who aren't bought into their ideology. Places like /r/GenZedong or /r/GreenAndPleasant for example actively ban anyone they suspect of being a "lib".

That too would make them non-representative of the left as a whole, if they are limited to one sectarian ideology.

Anyhow, here in NYC, in real life at least, far-leftists have little choice but to cooperate with the more left-leaning "libs," if they want to attract enough popular support to get anything done.

EDIT: My impressions are based on (1) various people I've known over the years, via my intermittent involvement in left-leaning political activism of various kinds, and (2) my current set of acquaintances, revolving mainly around the local autistic community plus my chat groups, plus also some miscellaneous people I've spoken to about politics in-person. (I don't discuss politics with most of my neighbors.)

I currently know only one person who fits Dox's characterization of the typical leftist. I also know a couple of people who describe themselves as "far left," yet who, in fact, are quite moderate compared to Dox's characterization of what he thinks the typical leftist is like. Most of my acquaintances (or, at least, most of those with whom I've discussed politics at all) are left-leaning.

It seems to me that NYC just isn't nearly as much of a magnet for political extremists, of whatever stripe, as the West Coast generally seems to be, as far as I can tell.


While NYC is very blue the mainstream of “the left” is what people in the ‘60s and ‘70s meant by liberal. It is a city that elected Giuliani, Koch, and Bloomberg, and Eric Adams. In the last decade you have had more radical elements such as AOC and Alvin Bragg enter the scene. In a city of 9 million or so some will be radicals. As noted by Mona the DSA sponsored Hamas victory rally in Times Square was heavily criticized by DSA members. While there is conflation between Democratic Socialism and “woke ideology” they are not same thing. Democratic Socialism emphasis is on economics, “woke ideology” on group identity. Unlike “wokeness” Democratic Socialism generally is not in favor of canceling people.


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27 Oct 2023, 11:26 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
While NYC is very blue the mainstream of “the left” is what people in the ‘60s and ‘70s meant by liberal. It is a city that elected Giuliani, Koch, and Bloomberg, and Eric Adams.

Yep.

I remember predicting, a while back, that the Democratic Party response to the Black Lives Matter movement would include the rise of a bunch of Black politicians who are former cops. That definitely happened here in NYC. Dunno if it happened in any other locales here in the U.S.A., although I think Biden's choice of Kamela Harris (a former prosecutor) as his running mate was similarly motivated.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
In the last decade you have had more radical elements such as AOC and Alvin Bragg enter the scene. In a city of 9 million or so some will be radicals. As noted by Mona the DSA sponsored Hamas victory rally in Times Square was heavily criticized by DSA members. While there is conflation between Democratic Socialism and “woke ideology” they are not same thing. Democratic Socialism emphasis is on economics, “woke ideology” on group identity. Unlike “wokeness” Democratic Socialism generally is not in favor of canceling people.

Thanks for at least putting “woke ideology” and “wokeness” in quotes, to acknowledge that these are controversial terms.


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