Page 2 of 4 [ 61 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Jono
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,613
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

07 Dec 2023, 5:25 pm

Honey69 wrote:
The Second Video makes brief mention of the Khazars. A lot of modern Jews are offended at the notion that some Eastern-European Jews might be descended from the Khazars (people who converted to Judaism over a thousand years ago). Modern Jews typically like to regard themselves as being direct descendants of the ancient inhabitants of Judea, and much prefer the "Rhineland Hypothesis." There may be some support for both theories.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23241444/


The Khazar hypothesis has been disproven. DNA evidence proves that the Ashkenazi Jews descended from the original group of Jews who immigrated to the areas of modern France and Germany after the Romans expelled them from the province of Judea (i.e. where Israel and Palestine is today). Other groups of Jews immigrated to the east or Africa after the Roman expulsion.



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,466
Location: temperate zone

07 Dec 2023, 5:48 pm

Honey69 wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Palestinians are mostly either Muslim or Christian


Are any Palestinians Jewish?


Thats a complicated question involving semantics.

There were several thousand Jews still living in Palestine in 1900 when Western Zionist Jewish setters began to trickle into Palestine.

1) The founders of modern Israel were 19th and early 20th century secular European Jewish Zionists.

2) Most Orthodox Jews opposed Zionism and opposed the creation of a modern Jewish state because they considered the cause to be a "blasphemy".

3) After the 1948 War when Israel became a nation --most Orthodox Jews changed their minds and accepted the State of Israel as a de facto reality. Ironically Orthodox Jews are now the most powerful voting bloc in Israel.

4) However some Orthodox Jews to this day do not recognize Israel including some who live in Israel. The later ID as "Palestinian Jews" and not as "Israeli citizens". So if you can be a "Palestinian Jew" then I guess you can call yourself a "Jewish Palestinian".

And even pro Israeli Jews from Arab countries (known as "Oriental Jews" in Israel and in the West) are called "Arab Jews" in the Arab world and are called that on "Al Jeezera".

Israel's biggest pop singer of the late 20th Century, Ms. Ofra Haza, whose family fled to Israel from Yemen, would be an "Arab Jew" according to Al Jeezera.



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,300

07 Dec 2023, 6:55 pm

Zionism began its life in the same places as communism, in the coffee shops of Vienna, Berlin and Paris. It was borne out a different struggle though, the ethno-nationalist aspirations of middle class Jewish intelligentsia

The origins of zionism go back centuries to Jews who yearned to return to Israel from Egypt and Babylon. However those Jews has a very different identity to the Jews of Europe, Many of the practices had changed/evolved and the jews of Europe carried with them different languages (Yiddish) and values, dress and food that were directly European. In some ways this is neo-zionism, The aspiration of the modern Zionist is also adjacency to Europe that includes physical appearance, Jews (whether in Europe, America or Israel) aspire to the ideals and beauty standards of Europe where "white is best" and blonde most desirable.

Thus while the Khazar origin hypothesis might well be "bunk", it serves as a antidote to cognitive dissonance that most Jews know they aren't Europeans but draw connections whatever way they can to a "white origin",



cbryn
Butterfly
Butterfly

Joined: 4 Oct 2023
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 16

08 Dec 2023, 3:16 pm

People move around a lot. Period. No people have any specific claim to a land through genetics. I don’t think it’s fair for people to say they belong in a certain part of the planet due to something as unimportant as descent. We’re all human.

I think the genetic argument and justification used by people to claim they’re this or that is just a new form of phrenology. People move around. People haven’t been stationary at any point in history. However, after all the map drawing post World War II, I think people have this idea that those borders mean something historically important or were magically in place for a while before.

My family makes an Iranian dish, a hempseed soup that is popular in Poland because it was brought there by travelers long ago. Do I have a meticulously traced bloodline to Iran or direct evidence? No. Do I have the tradition and recipe? Yes. I don’t think it is important that I be any background, what is important is I can pass this tradition and bit of culture on. It has absolutely nothing to do with my birth and everything to do with my experience.



cbryn
Butterfly
Butterfly

Joined: 4 Oct 2023
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 16

08 Dec 2023, 3:20 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Honey69 wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Palestinians are mostly either Muslim or Christian


Are any Palestinians Jewish?


Thats a complicated question involving semantics.

There were several thousand Jews still living in Palestine in 1900 when Western Zionist Jewish setters began to trickle into Palestine.

1) The founders of modern Israel were 19th and early 20th century secular European Jewish Zionists.

2) Most Orthodox Jews opposed Zionism and opposed the creation of a modern Jewish state because they considered the cause to be a "blasphemy".

3) After the 1948 War when Israel became a nation --most Orthodox Jews changed their minds and accepted the State of Israel as a de facto reality. Ironically Orthodox Jews are now the most powerful voting bloc in Israel.

4) However some Orthodox Jews to this day do not recognize Israel including some who live in Israel. The later ID as "Palestinian Jews" and not as "Israeli citizens". So if you can be a "Palestinian Jew" then I guess you can call yourself a "Jewish Palestinian".

And even pro Israeli Jews from Arab countries (known as "Oriental Jews" in Israel and in the West) are called "Arab Jews" in the Arab world and are called that on "Al Jeezera".

Israel's biggest pop singer of the late 20th Century, Ms. Ofra Haza, whose family fled to Israel from Yemen, would be an "Arab Jew" according to Al Jeezera.


A lot of the exodus of those communities were more or less stoked by Israel. While Mizrahi and Yemeni Israeli people are more or less galvanized to the extreme right in Israel, they’re often murdered by Ashkenazi settlers or police because of racism. Moreover, a lot of them lost a lot of culture through assimilating with the more international/European population present in Israel



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,466
Location: temperate zone

08 Dec 2023, 6:55 pm

cbryn wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Honey69 wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Palestinians are mostly either Muslim or Christian


Are any Palestinians Jewish?


Thats a complicated question involving semantics.

There were several thousand Jews still living in Palestine in 1900 when Western Zionist Jewish setters began to trickle into Palestine.

1) The founders of modern Israel were 19th and early 20th century secular European Jewish Zionists.

2) Most Orthodox Jews opposed Zionism and opposed the creation of a modern Jewish state because they considered the cause to be a "blasphemy".

3) After the 1948 War when Israel became a nation --most Orthodox Jews changed their minds and accepted the State of Israel as a de facto reality. Ironically Orthodox Jews are now the most powerful voting bloc in Israel.

4) However some Orthodox Jews to this day do not recognize Israel including some who live in Israel. The later ID as "Palestinian Jews" and not as "Israeli citizens". So if you can be a "Palestinian Jew" then I guess you can call yourself a "Jewish Palestinian".

And even pro Israeli Jews from Arab countries (known as "Oriental Jews" in Israel and in the West) are called "Arab Jews" in the Arab world and are called that on "Al Jeezera".

Israel's biggest pop singer of the late 20th Century, Ms. Ofra Haza, whose family fled to Israel from Yemen, would be an "Arab Jew" according to Al Jeezera.


A lot of the exodus of those communities were more or less stoked by Israel. While Mizrahi and Yemeni Israeli people are more or less galvanized to the extreme right in Israel, they’re often murdered by Ashkenazi settlers or police because of racism. Moreover, a lot of them lost a lot of culture through assimilating with the more international/European population present in Israel

Yes. Ive read conflicting things. That right after the 1948 war Mizrahi Jews fled to Israel from the Arab countries because those countries started to mistreat them when they werent before. And Ive read that that exodus was because Israel engineer fake attacks to scare Jews in Arab countries into moving to Israel. Maybe both are true.



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,300

08 Dec 2023, 7:07 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Yes. Ive read conflicting things. That right after the 1948 war Mizrahi Jews fled to Israel from the Arab countries because those countries started to mistreat them when they werent before. And Ive read that that exodus was because Israel engineer fake attacks to scare Jews in Arab countries into moving to Israel. Maybe both are true.


The history of zionism leading to the establishment of Israel was complicated and involved shifting/overlapping agendas.Today Israel is fighting HAMAS. But in the 1920s-40s it was Jewish terror groups who were terrorising the British and Palestinian populations.



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,300

08 Dec 2023, 7:16 pm

cbryn wrote:
Do I have the tradition and recipe? Yes. I don’t think it is important that I be any background, what is important is I can pass this tradition and bit of culture on. It has absolutely nothing to do with my birth and everything to do with my experience.


This is a fair comment. Identity shifts over time. According to Jewish tradition they recognise their forefathers made the first great migration from Sumer (Ur of the Chaldeas) following the first invasions by Semitic speaking tribes into Sumer, I am curious and amazed from that first migration how Jewish religion, tradition and culture has somehow stayed intact for literally thousands of years. But the language has changed. The earliest language known spoken by Jews was not Hebrew, it was Aramaic (shared at that time with Arab speakers in the Levant). I think Hebrew evolved later from the time of Egypt (the Egytpians referred to jews as "Habiru). So over time the DNA of the Jews (whatever their origins from Sumer) started to resemble the people they dwelled with. No surprise Russian jews have Russian DNA, Swedish Jews have Swedish DNA and English Jews have British DNA, Ethiopian jews are indistinguishable from their neighbors. The community are like chameleons when it comes to DNA.



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,466
Location: temperate zone

08 Dec 2023, 7:51 pm

cyberdad wrote:
cbryn wrote:
Do I have the tradition and recipe? Yes. I don’t think it is important that I be any background, what is important is I can pass this tradition and bit of culture on. It has absolutely nothing to do with my birth and everything to do with my experience.


This is a fair comment. Identity shifts over time. According to Jewish tradition they recognise their forefathers made the first great migration from Sumer (Ur of the Chaldeas) following the first invasions by Semitic speaking tribes into Sumer, I am curious and amazed from that first migration how Jewish religion, tradition and culture has somehow stayed intact for literally thousands of years. But the language has changed. The earliest language known spoken by Jews was not Hebrew, it was Aramaic (shared at that time with Arab speakers in the Levant). I think Hebrew evolved later from the time of Egypt (the Egytpians referred to jews as "Habiru). So over time the DNA of the Jews (whatever their origins from Sumer) started to resemble the people they dwelled with. No surprise Russian jews have Russian DNA, Swedish Jews have Swedish DNA and English Jews have British DNA, Ethiopian jews are indistinguishable from their neighbors. The community are like chameleons when it comes to DNA.


Everything in this post is utter crap.
Every fact is false. You screwed things up so badly that its not even funny.

Lets take it from the top.

"History begins at Sumer" as a certain book title says. The Sumerians were a people of unknown origin speaking a unique non Semitic language who built the first cities in Mesopotamia at around 3100 BC and (for practical purpuses) invented civilization itself.

Later in the third milleniaum BC the Semitic tribes, known as "Akkadians" invaded Mesopotamia (modern Iraq, the land between the two rivers), and the Akkadians soon adopted Sumerian writing religion and culture, built their own cities. Later still Assyrians (another Semitic speaking group) came down from the north to conquer an empire in Mesopotamia. They were aka "the Chaldeans".

Historians guess that Abraham lived about 2200 BC. Apparently he was a semitic traveling salesman so to speak. Left Ur of the Chaldeans to move west. Its not accurate to say "he left Sumer". More accurate to say he "left Mesopotamia". Sumer was long gone by that time.

Abraham was the guy God spoke too and he made the convenant with God ...founded the Jewish ethnic group.

Now lets dial ahead two thousand plus years...skip over Moses...and go right to Jesus.

Aramaic came AFTER Hebrew in history. Not before, after. PLEASE get that straight!! !! !!


Aramaic was a Semitic language that was spawned in Syria in the late Iron Age and soon became a trading lingua franca throughout the Levant of many nations. Drove out other languages as the common vernacular. And it is still spoke in some pockets of the Middle East today.

In the time of Jesus it was what common folks spoke...what Jesus himself spoke.

Hebrew was aleady an ancient dead language kept alive by the scribes and priests as a liturgical language. What Latin was to Catholic Europe in the middle ages and in modern times...thats what Hebrew was in ancient Judea at the time of Jesus. A prestige dead language. No longer vernacular.

Though Hebrew, Aramaic, and Arabic, all are Semitic and have similarities.

You may have Hebrew confused with Yiddish. Yiddish did evolve much later. And outside of the mideast in eastern Europe (basically its an odd dialect of German but written in the Hebrew alphabet).

Modern genetics studies show almost the exact opposite of what you're claiming. Jews of the diaspora are more related to each other than they are to their Gentile Nieghbors. Russian Jews have more DNA in common with Palestinian Arabs than they do with Gentile Russians.

But they do have SOME genes in common with their Gentile neighbors. Which is what you expect of centures of the diaspora.



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,300

08 Dec 2023, 7:56 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Historians guess that Abraham lived about 2200 BC. Apparently he was a semitic traveling salesman so to speak. Left Ur of the Chaldeans to move west. Its not accurate to say "he left Sumer". More accurate to say he "left Mesopotamia". Sumer was long gone by that time.


Do you have evidence Abraham was a nomad and spoke a Semitic language?



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,300

08 Dec 2023, 7:59 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Modern genetics studies show almost the exact opposite of what you're claiming. Jews of the diaspora are more related to each other than they are to their Gentile Nieghbors. Russian Jews have more DNA in common with Palestinian Arabs than they do with Gentile Russians.


That is clearly not true. There are "jewish" marker genes that are common but it's self-evident that Jews living in specific regions for long periods of time resemble their neighbors. Iranian Jews look Iranian, Moroccan Jews look Moroccan, Yemeni Jews look Yemini, Dutch jews look Dutch etc etc....



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,466
Location: temperate zone

08 Dec 2023, 8:04 pm

cyberdad wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Historians guess that Abraham lived about 2200 BC. Apparently he was a semitic traveling salesman so to speak. Left Ur of the Chaldeans to move west. Its not accurate to say "he left Sumer". More accurate to say he "left Mesopotamia". Sumer was long gone by that time.


Do you have evidence Abraham was a nomad and spoke a Semitic language?


The Bible implies that he was a nomad.

He came from a Semitic speaking city..traded with Semites. So its like he was either a native Semitic speaker, or he code switched to one or more Semitic languages.

But lets say his native tongue was...Eskimo. Do you have a point to make?



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,466
Location: temperate zone

08 Dec 2023, 8:08 pm

cyberdad wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Modern genetics studies show almost the exact opposite of what you're claiming. Jews of the diaspora are more related to each other than they are to their Gentile Nieghbors. Russian Jews have more DNA in common with Palestinian Arabs than they do with Gentile Russians.


That is clearly not true. There are "jewish" marker genes that are common but it's self-evident that Jews living in specific regions for long periods of time resemble their neighbors. Iranian Jews look Iranian, Moroccan Jews look Moroccan, Yemeni Jews look Yemini, Dutch jews look Dutch etc etc....


Doesnt mean that DNA studies dont show a genetic distinctions between Jews and their Gentile neighbors.

European Jews often have red hair (so do some Palestinian Arabs) but they still tend to "look Jewish". Facial bone structure etc. Appearances can be deceiving. As you said in the sentence that contradicts everything else you said...there are DNA markers.



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,466
Location: temperate zone

08 Dec 2023, 8:19 pm

Also there are mentions of a tribe called "the Hebirus" by the Egyptian who (though scholars debate it) it seems likely were the forerunners of the "Hebrews".

Lower (northern) Egypt was conquered by the Hyksos (the Shepherd kings) a nomatic Semitic tribe. And the Hebrews are thought to be a smaller tribe who attached themselves to the Hyksos.

Later around 1300 BC the native Egyptian rulers of upper Egypt came down the Nile and beat the crap out of the Hyksos and retook lower Egypt. All of that might be distortedly remembered in the story of Moses. Moses was buddies with the Pharoah because the Pharoah was one of his own. But then "a new Pharaoh came to power who did not know Moses" (ie was a native Egyptian who did want this foreign scum in his country). So the Pharoah inslaved these Asian interlopers and made them into slaves and took away thier land ownership etc forcing Moses to rebel.



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,300

08 Dec 2023, 10:38 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Historians guess that Abraham lived about 2200 BC. Apparently he was a semitic traveling salesman so to speak. Left Ur of the Chaldeans to move west. Its not accurate to say "he left Sumer". More accurate to say he "left Mesopotamia". Sumer was long gone by that time.


Do you have evidence Abraham was a nomad and spoke a Semitic language?


The Bible implies that he was a nomad.

He came from a Semitic speaking city..traded with Semites. So its like he was either a native Semitic speaker, or he code switched to one or more Semitic languages.

But lets say his native tongue was...Eskimo. Do you have a point to make?


Umm the language of Ur was Sumerian



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,300

08 Dec 2023, 10:43 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
European Jews often have red hair (so do some Palestinian Arabs) but they still tend to "look Jewish". Facial bone structure etc. Appearances can be deceiving. As you said in the sentence that contradicts everything else you said...there are DNA markers.


ummm do you know how genetics work?