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IsabellaLinton
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17 May 2024, 11:54 pm

Fnord wrote:
Get the dictatorial men to stop curtailing women's rights (and the rights of minorities), and most of the battle will be won.



Those men (and women) are elected democratically by the people to represent the people.
It's not just the leaders.
It's the groupthink.


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funeralxempire
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17 May 2024, 11:59 pm

Typically when someone offers a solution to a complicated problem that starts with well, whydoncha just... or ends with it's just that easy there's a good chance they don't understand the problem well enough to be offering up any solutions.

Apparently the American dream is working just swell, except for all the Americans messing it up.

Which sure sounds like a way of insisting the propaganda is correct, it's reality that's getting in the way.

Which also sounds like a refusal to acknowledge reality.

There are no Americans in Baghdad he tells us, as American forces clearly cross through the background.


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Fnord
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18 May 2024, 12:00 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Get the dictatorial men to stop curtailing women's rights (and the rights of minorities), and most of the battle will be won.
Those men (and women) are elected democratically by the people to represent the people.  It's not just the leaders.  It's the groupthink.
Yes!  It's the leaders telling their followers what to think!  When everyone thinks alike, no one thinks for themselves.

You've hit that nail square on the head!


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IsabellaLinton
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18 May 2024, 12:01 am

Race is certainly another problem contributing to inequality, but afaik there's no legislation actually stating that a newborn BIPOC citizen has different constitutional rights than other babies. They may face racism and discrimination leading to barriers throughout their lives but is it written in state law that some BIPOC can be treated differently from other BIPOC and/or Caucasians, or have their personhood determined by election results?


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IsabellaLinton
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18 May 2024, 12:11 am

My point is that a baby girl regardless of race does not have the same rights as a baby boy. We may assume she does as an American citizen, but the truth is that a baby girl in New York is afforded different human rights than a baby girl in Texas. The girl in Texas lacks the rights of all American boys, as well.


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18 May 2024, 12:46 am

Fnord wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Get the dictatorial men to stop curtailing women's rights (and the rights of minorities), and most of the battle will be won.
Those men (and women) are elected democratically by the people to represent the people.  It's not just the leaders.  It's the groupthink.
Yes!  It's the leaders telling their followers what to think!  When everyone thinks alike, no one thinks for themselves.

You've hit that nail square on the head!

An unassailable rebuttal
I like the anarchic feelings implied in this statement.


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IsabellaLinton
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18 May 2024, 11:10 am

Fnord wrote:
It's the leaders telling their followers what to think!  When everyone thinks alike, no one thinks for themselves.


When they only have two choices for President and they're infirm, criminal white men, people have no choice but to groupthink. Even if women were on the ballot they haven't produced a single candidate worth voting for in the past fifty years.


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18 May 2024, 11:36 am



Oh, What A Difference 5 Years Will Make; Particularly, When the World Endures A Global Pandemic

With Supply Shortages and Sky Rocketing Inflation All Around the World to the Point Now Where

Housing Prices are Close to and More Than Double What They Were Before the Pandemic; Sure,

Owning a Home, A Major Part of the American Dream; And For Most of the Common Folk, a Major

Part of Their Assets in life;

It's Hard to Overcome That

Reality even Though Other Polls
Show Economic Success Doesn't
Rate Number One When it Comes to the American Dream.

Family, Love, and Freedom Are Considered Truer Rights to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness...

Yeah, i Was Financially Independent Retiring Early With a Prognosis of No Recovery From
A Synergy in Life Threat of 19 Mostly Work and Stress Related Disorders, Accumulating in
More Than A Decade of 33 Years of Work of Which 25 Years of That After College And 3 degrees

Were Assigned to the Golden Handcuffs of Federal Employment; Insuring Life Long Benefits
after the Term was Complete of at Least 25 Years of Employment; With Copious Amounts

Of Health, Life, and Disability Benefits too;

True, A Trade-off in Someways Yet Great

If you Can Adapt to all the Changes That

May Be forced Your Way to stay Employed This Way.

Gallup Poll From 2017:

"WASHINGTON, D.C. -- While most Americans, 70%, continue to view the American dream as personally achievable, 29% tell Gallup that even by working hard and playing by the rules, the American dream is unattainable for them. The latter figure represents a slight increase from 25% in 2009, when Gallup last asked Americans this question.

However, this nationwide outlook masks important disparities in the perceptions of various groups across the country. Women aged 18 to 49, for example, are significantly more likely than older women -- and men in all age groups -- to say that even by working hard and playing by the rules, the American dream is unattainable for them in their lifetime."

ABC Poll From 2024:

"In a dispiriting sign of the times, barely more than a quarter of Americans say the American dream still holds true -- about half as many as said so 13 years ago.

Defined as "if you work hard you'll get ahead," just 27% in a new ABC News/Ipsos poll say the American dream still holds, down sharply from 50% when the question first was asked in 2010. Eighteen percent now say it never held true, up from 4%.

The rest, 52%, say the promise used to hold true but no longer does, up 9 points. Taken together, 69% say the American dream does not hold true today, up 22 points. And that's in comparison to a poll taken in the aftermath of the Great Recession."

It's Really Not Surprising That the So-Called "American Dream" And Many Other Dreams
Around the World are on Hold or Life-Support After a Global Pandemic; It's Also Not Surprising

That the Human Species as Whole, is Increasingly Living in Turmoil, in a World of Tools That Are

Increasingly Mastering Humans and Even Replacing Humans; Yet if We Really Go to a Big View of

Existence, Humanity is Just A Small Part of the Big Picture of Nature; When one part of Nature

Gets out of Balance From the Rest; Typically, Population Pressures Result in Culling of the

Species Through Many Environmental Challenges and Adaptations; And Perhaps Yes,

Even Extinction of the Species.

Considering that Humans in the
Next Several Decades are Predicted
in having a hand in the decimation of
1 in 8 Animal And Plant Species and have

Already Come This Far Decimating About A Half
of the Living Diversity of Nature so Far; It Seems Clear

There Are Consequences

For Actions; Where HAha

Humans Still 'Think' They are in charge...

Clue:

We are not.

We Either Adapt and
Live in Balance Or Go
Away; Perhaps, Slowly

in Much Misery and Suffering too...

The Evidence is Already All Around Us
Starting With About a Third of Young Women in

The U.S. Contemplating Suicide Per Study By the CDC,

As of Course There Goes the Future of the species For Real...

At Even a Larger View of All the Cold and Hot Rocks Up in Space
That Don't Support Any Life at All; It's all a Miracle and Magic to

me that in this one

Opportunity; This one

Sliver of Possibility of

Heaven in a Place of Existence; Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes,

i've Finally Attained it And Kept it For Almost 11 Years...

What are the Chances That a Child Who Couldn't Speak until
Four With the Challenge of a Form of Autism And Bi-Polar Disorder Non-Specified

Could Achieve This in a Lifetime; Without 'This American Dream;' Without What it's Been Worth So Far....

Not Likely
At All It
Would Have
Happened Anywhere
Yet Here and Now; Blood,
Sweat, Tears, And a Bit of Fortune to even breathe now...

i've Got FRiEnDS who Have Sacrificed A Whole Decade of Their
Life to Make it to this Country Just for a Chance for A Better Life

of Freedom to come, With or Without Family and Love; Yawn, i've Got

Super Rich Relatives Who Have Relatively Speaking Had a Miserable Life, Overall;

And Poor Ones Who Smile With the American Dream of Family, Love, and Freedom Every F in Day...

It's All Relative

Indeed;

And It's All
Up to Each and
Every One of us

to Either Adapt or Not...

Wherever We Land on this Opportunity to Breathe...

And No, i'm Not Gonna Tell You, if i Can Do it, You Can Do it too;

HAha,

i Still
Pinch
Myself Somedays

And Wonder if i didn't
Really Die Those Three Instances i Was
Facing Death And This is Really Heaven Now...

It is What is
Is Now; The

Why is Not That

Important to me anymore...

Yet Still Interesting to Ponder
Some Days With

SMiLes...

It's What
Dreams
aRE ALL about...

And Yes Made of, When They
Are Actually Real and You Will
Even Take Pictures of them And Share them too...

Most Humans Have Potentials They Haven't even Dreamed of Yet...

my Suggestion

Start Dreaming,

Keep Dreaming,

And Make Something oF it
Real for You; Yet of course

As Far as i Can And Will See, Feel, and Sense,

Nothing Comes or Goes As a Guarantee; All A Gift or

Curse it is Now

Or More
Likely
The
In Between..:)

https://news.gallup.com/poll/260741/americans-american-dream-achievable.aspx

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/american-dream-reality-people-poll/story?id=106339566



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18 May 2024, 12:47 pm

The idea that the American Dream works or is good because it encourages self-reliance is absurd. No matter how hard you work, you are always at the mercy of those who pay you. You are at the mercy of macro- and microeconomics, shifting government policies, complex international relations, etc. The world is far too interconnected and tangled for there to be anything resembling true self-reliance. No one person in this world truly succeeds on their own. Not everyone wants to or is able to achieve the specific Jeffersonian American Dream which we treat as borderline-sacred of becoming a landowner and achieving self-reliance.

The American Dream says that dependence on the government is bad. Yet dependence on private employers is considered good. The rebuttal to this is that I can just change employer. This is a strange argument that ignores the fact that (and I can't believe I have to say this) finding a new job is hard and is not guaranteed to even be any better--not to mention that if I am not being paid enough, I almost certainly do not have savings to hold me over during the job search. Or the rebuttal is to move somewhere that has better economic opportunities. This is also strange and ignores the fact that (how do I still have to point these things out?) moving is very expensive and stressfull, and most people would rather not leave their home and everyone they know behind just because the economy in their area is struggling.

Tldr: to the capitalist advocate of the American Dream:
Dependence on employers who only care about you inasmuch as it benefits them: Good!
Dependence on democratic institutions which at least is supposed to care about you: Bad!

And again, as with capitalism, no matter how badly the system is working, it is actually working just fine, because capitalism cannot possibly NOT work. This means that if you take issue with the system, you are an idiot, because the system is always working. Trying to fix the system is what makes life worse! Just don't study any history and you won't question that!


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18 May 2024, 12:53 pm

"The system works and has always worked perfectly fine. Even if it seems like it isn't working, it is actually working as well as possible, because this is the most ideal system possible. Any attempts to improve this ideal system end up making it worse! Again--just don't study history or study foreign countries which have made life better for everyone with robust social programs."


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- Thucydides


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18 May 2024, 2:13 pm

I tried to watch some of that video. Anyway, I find the whole concept of an "American Dream" silly, as people all over the world want to be prosperous. When support for Communism was widespread, there was indeed a movement that told people to work for the common good rather than their self-interest, so one interpretation of the American Dream is as a rejection of that idea. Another meaning for the American Dream would have to do with the prosperity enjoyed by those who returned from fighting in World War II. The US really made bank on that war, while people in Europe and Asia struggled to recover, the US was booming, at least until the Oil Crises of the 1970s when the chickens finally came home to roost.

I guess another way to speak of the American Dream is as a uniquely "American" sort of ease. A ranch house surrounded by lots of land, a swimming pool, a outsize pickup truck with a quad cab, instead of the aristocratic lifestyle with crystal chandeliers, elegant dinners, and a staff of servants that are enjoyed by the wealthy in other countries. Also the idea that material wealth doesn't make one special, in the sense of distancing oneself from the masses, but of sharing that life with other hard-working Americans who'll give you the shirt of their back if you need it.

Nevertheless a silly concept to obsess about in this day and age. I didn't think I'd learn anything from that video, sorry I didn't watch the whole thing.


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18 May 2024, 3:53 pm

roronoa79 wrote:
The idea that the American Dream works or is good because it encourages self-reliance is absurd. . . .
And yet, here I am!


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18 May 2024, 4:23 pm

MaxE wrote:
I tried to watch some of that video. Anyway, I find the whole concept of an "American Dream" silly, as people all over the world want to be prosperous. When support for Communism was widespread, there was indeed a movement that told people to work for the common good rather than their self-interest, so one interpretation of the American Dream is as a rejection of that idea. Another meaning for the American Dream would have to do with the prosperity enjoyed by those who returned from fighting in World War II. The US really made bank on that war, while people in Europe and Asia struggled to recover, the US was booming, at least until the Oil Crises of the 1970s when the chickens finally came home to roost.

The idea of the "American Dream" is older. According to the Wikipedia article on American Dream:

Quote:
Historian Frederick Jackson Turner in 1893 advanced the frontier thesis, under which American democracy and the American Dream were formed by the American frontier. He stressed the process—the moving frontier line—and the impact it had on pioneers going through the process. He also stressed results; especially that American democracy was the primary result, along with egalitarianism, a lack of interest in high culture, and violence. "American democracy was born of no theorist's dream; it was not carried in the Susan Constant to Virginia, nor in the Mayflower to Plymouth. It came out of the American forest, and it gained new strength each time it touched a new frontier," said Turner.

In Turner's thesis, the American frontier established liberty by releasing Americans from European mindsets and eroding old, dysfunctional customs. The frontier had no need for standing armies, established churches, aristocrats or nobles, nor for landed gentry who controlled most of the land and charged heavy rents. Frontier land was free for the taking. Turner first announced his thesis in a paper entitled "The Significance of the Frontier in American History", delivered to the American Historical Association in 1893 in Chicago. He won wide acclaim among historians and intellectuals. Turner elaborated on the theme in his advanced history lectures and in a series of essays published over the next 25 years, published along with his initial paper as The Frontier in American History. Turner's emphasis on the importance of the frontier in shaping American character influenced the interpretation found in thousands of scholarly histories. By the time Turner died in 1932, 60% of the leading history departments in the U.S. were teaching courses in frontier history along Turnerian lines.

In other words, back in the 1700's and 1800's, the "American Dream" was based on an abundance of cheap land freshly stolen from the indigenous tribes.


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18 May 2024, 4:38 pm

I think we're in a really strange place where there's something like a five to ten year rift where Gen Z tries tumbling into a work world that doesn't exist anymore, unemployment soars over 50%, and it's largely technological retooling where on the other side of that sort-of is Ray Kurzweil 'singularty' hyperabundance, the Micho Kaku koolaid. I'm somewhat convinced of the later as far as how well AI and automation are coming along.

What scares the heck out of me is what life will be like in that gap. It could be anything from a lot of self-aware people hunkering down and refusing to give up civilization or it could look like constant riots and even civil war. If that gets bad enough we may not get to the other side, or we might be still here as a species but our capacity for having that (manufacturing, materials, top-end chips, etc.) could end up being disrupted out of possibility.

Not a lot one can do perhaps aside from working on some light food self-sufficiency and praying / meditating just so if people are loosing their isht you're better prepared to not lose it yourself.


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18 May 2024, 7:12 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I think we're in a really strange place where there's something like a five to ten year rift where Gen Z tries tumbling into a work world that doesn't exist anymore, unemployment soars over 50%, and it's largely technological retooling where on the other side of that sort-of is Ray Kurzweil 'singularty' hyperabundance, the Micho Kaku koolaid...

I don't think this is especially limited to the US though.


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18 May 2024, 8:31 pm

roronoa79 wrote:
"The system works and has always worked perfectly fine. Even if it seems like it isn't working, it is actually working as well as possible, because this is the most ideal system possible. Any attempts to improve this ideal system end up making it worse! Again--just don't study history or study foreign countries which have made life better for everyone with robust social programs."


It's because people still see socialism as "that bad thing from the 50s". People think the Nordic countries are no different than China or the old Soviet Union, and still use Cold War-era rhetoric 30+ years after it ended.

Even my family thinks the income tax for working class people is 50% in many European countries, and that people have to wait 3 months for open heart surgery in countries with universal health care. Those are sound bites Rush Limbaugh made 20 years ago.

Plus people think Christians are being "oppressed" in social democratic nations through laws against hate speech. They equate the experiences of Christians in Norway and Sweden with those in Iran or North Korea.

This is why the U.S. can't move forward as a nation.


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