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Does the Bible present a flat earth? Think carefully...
Yes, but I haven't read it 8%  8%  [ 1 ]
Yes and I have read it 17%  17%  [ 2 ]
No, but I haven't read it 8%  8%  [ 1 ]
No and I have read it 67%  67%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 12

gwenevyn
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29 Aug 2007, 4:39 am

Quatermass wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Quatermass wrote:
Flat-earthers are just big targets.


Yeah, but the Bible doesn't present the idea and I have heard Hadron and others claim that it does. It's been a classic arguement since Washington Irving as an attack on the Bible and Christianity.


Yes, but I think that for a time it was part of RC Dogma. Certainly the Earth-centric view of the universe stems from that.


I'm a late arrival again, looks like... but no, it was never dogma.

Some of you seriously need to go chill out in the Ceasefire.



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29 Aug 2007, 4:40 am

The topic had nothing to do with astrology. Your post was off-topic on the face of it, and had absolutely nothing to do with the train of thought over the past dozen or so posts in the thread (much less any other part of it). You just came out of the blue, disregarding what was being discussed, and posted that tripe.

And I'm not debating anyone who's best debating skill is apparently throwing around epithets. Nor will I be intimidated. When you have a civil tongue and a respectful attitude, perhaps then I'll consider it, but not until.


LKL, thanks for at least having the civility to listen and respond intelligently.


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29 Aug 2007, 5:14 am

The_Chosen_One wrote:
Anything else, like what parakeet posted later on, was irrelevant, because it covered up the argument that the flat-earth WAS and IS mentioned.

Translation: "My mind is made up, I'm not letting these Christians confuse me with any facts." Way to disregard an entire thread's worth of intelligent debate.


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29 Aug 2007, 5:40 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Hadron wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
The_Chosen_One wrote:
But the bible is never read from cover to cover anyway. Every Christian I know picks and chooses which passages to read and follow at any one time, and they have told me that they have to do it that way to get the true MEANING (if there is one) of God's word. I told them it would be simpler to read it cover-to-cover, but they said the 'word' wasn't written that way, you are meant to search for it. So quoting small passages is done quite regularly, and the context is not lost. You may have been taught differently, but I was told if I read the bible like a normal book, I would not get the meaning, because it wouldn't make sense. That's one reason I gave Christianity the arse in the first place.


Your statement is false. I have read it cover to cover. Genesis through Revelation. Have you? Has anyone besides me? On the ACT and GED I was in the 99th percentile in reading comprehesion, I doubt very much any of you are from what I've been reading here.

I read the entire Bible, and it contraticts itself over and over, I have lost count of the RE lessons where we did evidence for and evidence against. A high comprehension score shows an ability to write an essay and concur with a mark scheme, not neccesarily evidence for geninuine understanding.


I got 76th percentile on the essay, I stink at writing and that wasn't what the test measured.

No it shows you are lousy at getting ideas together in an essay, but can write succint short answers. Comprehension tests made me snore anyway, they are dead easy normally.



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29 Aug 2007, 5:43 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
The_Chosen_One wrote:
But the bible is never read from cover to cover anyway. Every Christian I know picks and chooses which passages to read and follow at any one time, and they have told me that they have to do it that way to get the true MEANING (if there is one) of God's word. I told them it would be simpler to read it cover-to-cover, but they said the 'word' wasn't written that way, you are meant to search for it. So quoting small passages is done quite regularly, and the context is not lost. You may have been taught differently, but I was told if I read the bible like a normal book, I would not get the meaning, because it wouldn't make sense. That's one reason I gave Christianity the arse in the first place.


Your statement is false. I have read it cover to cover. Genesis through Revelation. Have you? Has anyone besides me?


Oh, indeed. I have, and I know many others who also have. Actually, my grandfather read it more than 60 times, straight through. He also started his own small Bible college.


That's amazing, I've only read it 1.5 times. Hadron says he's found many contradictions. I hadn't noticed any. Had your grandfather noticed and "contradictions"?

Here is a nice list from the interwebs: Enjoy!
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... tions.html
Contradictions



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29 Aug 2007, 5:47 am

JonnyBGoode wrote:
Right? Who gives you the right to say what rights I have? I have the right to choose whomever I wish to argue with or not argue with. I have the right to leave this forum and never come back if I choose. I also have the right to ignore trolls that aren't even following along with a debate people are currently having but just come in out of the blue with a complete derailment onto something else entirely. And then when you don't take their derailment bait, they throw ad hominems at you.

The debate in this thread is whether or not the Bible espouses a flat earth cosmology. If you wish to start another thread and discuss something else, feel free to. But we're having a sensible debate in this thread, and even seem to be reaching some understandings, and I for one don't feel like allowing people to come in here and disrupt and derail the progress being made simply because they have an anti-Christian agenda. So no, since you obviously show no respect whatsoever to either me or my opponents in this current debate, I'm not going to respond to your earlier post.

And you can't make me. So there. :P

What if everyone plays that game. It would be a very silent thread.



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29 Aug 2007, 9:41 am

Quatermass wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
The difference between your views and ours is that we believe reality is God-centered, whereas you believe reality is human-centered. We believe we should listen and cater to God's preferences for how things should be done, since "of Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things" (Romans 11:36), and that, therefore, reality is God-centered. But you believe that we should center our attentions on human preferences, and that doing so will yield balance and universal satisfaction in the world, since, in your view, reality is human-centered.


Technically speaking, I do not believe reality is human-centred, but rather human perception centred. Things exist without us. It takes the human mind to percieve them as beautiful or ugly or good or evil.


True, but I was writing in a practical context: How should we as humans define/determine what we do? By our perception, or by God's/god's/gods'?


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Last edited by Ragtime on 29 Aug 2007, 10:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

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29 Aug 2007, 10:03 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
The_Chosen_One wrote:
But the bible is never read from cover to cover anyway. Every Christian I know picks and chooses which passages to read and follow at any one time, and they have told me that they have to do it that way to get the true MEANING (if there is one) of God's word. I told them it would be simpler to read it cover-to-cover, but they said the 'word' wasn't written that way, you are meant to search for it. So quoting small passages is done quite regularly, and the context is not lost. You may have been taught differently, but I was told if I read the bible like a normal book, I would not get the meaning, because it wouldn't make sense. That's one reason I gave Christianity the arse in the first place.


Your statement is false. I have read it cover to cover. Genesis through Revelation. Have you? Has anyone besides me?


Oh, indeed. I have, and I know many others who also have. Actually, my grandfather read it more than 60 times, straight through. He also started his own small Bible college.


That's amazing, I've only read it 1.5 times. Hadron says he's found many contradictions. I hadn't noticed any. Had your grandfather noticed and "contradictions"?


Nope.


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29 Aug 2007, 10:09 am

JonnyBGoode wrote:
I'm not even going to dignify Chosen One with a response. Because no matter what I say, he's not listening. That last post was so non-sequitur with the rest of this thread it wasn't even funny. (Not to mention easily disproven, but I'm not even going to bother.)


Ya, it's just a game to him.


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29 Aug 2007, 10:21 am

Quatermass wrote:
Never piss off an Aussie, JohnnyCBad.


Some people can't handle the truth, and it's best to just leave those people to themselves.

Jesus: "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces" (Matt 7:6).

It's that last phrase which is now occurring.


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Last edited by Ragtime on 29 Aug 2007, 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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29 Aug 2007, 10:28 am

Hadron wrote:
JonnyBGoode wrote:
Right? Who gives you the right to say what rights I have? I have the right to choose whomever I wish to argue with or not argue with. I have the right to leave this forum and never come back if I choose. I also have the right to ignore trolls that aren't even following along with a debate people are currently having but just come in out of the blue with a complete derailment onto something else entirely. And then when you don't take their derailment bait, they throw ad hominems at you.

The debate in this thread is whether or not the Bible espouses a flat earth cosmology. If you wish to start another thread and discuss something else, feel free to. But we're having a sensible debate in this thread, and even seem to be reaching some understandings, and I for one don't feel like allowing people to come in here and disrupt and derail the progress being made simply because they have an anti-Christian agenda. So no, since you obviously show no respect whatsoever to either me or my opponents in this current debate, I'm not going to respond to your earlier post.

And you can't make me. So there. :P

What if everyone plays that game. It would be a very silent thread.


That "game" of choosing not to argue? :? O-kay... Sounds more like a simple choice to me.


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29 Aug 2007, 10:44 am

Ragtime wrote:
Hadron wrote:
JonnyBGoode wrote:
Right? Who gives you the right to say what rights I have? I have the right to choose whomever I wish to argue with or not argue with. I have the right to leave this forum and never come back if I choose. I also have the right to ignore trolls that aren't even following along with a debate people are currently having but just come in out of the blue with a complete derailment onto something else entirely. And then when you don't take their derailment bait, they throw ad hominems at you.

The debate in this thread is whether or not the Bible espouses a flat earth cosmology. If you wish to start another thread and discuss something else, feel free to. But we're having a sensible debate in this thread, and even seem to be reaching some understandings, and I for one don't feel like allowing people to come in here and disrupt and derail the progress being made simply because they have an anti-Christian agenda. So no, since you obviously show no respect whatsoever to either me or my opponents in this current debate, I'm not going to respond to your earlier post.

And you can't make me. So there. :P

What if everyone plays that game. It would be a very silent thread.


That "game" of choosing not to argue? :? O-kay... Sounds more like a simple choice to me.

A choice to attempt to bully someone out of a thread because they have a different set of views?



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29 Aug 2007, 10:56 am

Hadron wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Hadron wrote:
JonnyBGoode wrote:
Right? Who gives you the right to say what rights I have? I have the right to choose whomever I wish to argue with or not argue with. I have the right to leave this forum and never come back if I choose. I also have the right to ignore trolls that aren't even following along with a debate people are currently having but just come in out of the blue with a complete derailment onto something else entirely. And then when you don't take their derailment bait, they throw ad hominems at you.

The debate in this thread is whether or not the Bible espouses a flat earth cosmology. If you wish to start another thread and discuss something else, feel free to. But we're having a sensible debate in this thread, and even seem to be reaching some understandings, and I for one don't feel like allowing people to come in here and disrupt and derail the progress being made simply because they have an anti-Christian agenda. So no, since you obviously show no respect whatsoever to either me or my opponents in this current debate, I'm not going to respond to your earlier post.

And you can't make me. So there. :P

What if everyone plays that game. It would be a very silent thread.


That "game" of choosing not to argue? :? O-kay... Sounds more like a simple choice to me.

A choice to attempt to bully someone out of a thread because they have a different set of views?


I believe Jonny is talking about a choice of either the debaters debating civilly, Jonny himself leaving, or those who refuse to debate civilly leaving. I don't see a use of force or threat. He's simply relating the fact that debate cannot be had below a certain basic level of respect for the debater.


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29 Aug 2007, 11:12 am

Ragtime wrote:
Hadron wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Hadron wrote:
JonnyBGoode wrote:
Right? Who gives you the right to say what rights I have? I have the right to choose whomever I wish to argue with or not argue with. I have the right to leave this forum and never come back if I choose. I also have the right to ignore trolls that aren't even following along with a debate people are currently having but just come in out of the blue with a complete derailment onto something else entirely. And then when you don't take their derailment bait, they throw ad hominems at you.

The debate in this thread is whether or not the Bible espouses a flat earth cosmology. If you wish to start another thread and discuss something else, feel free to. But we're having a sensible debate in this thread, and even seem to be reaching some understandings, and I for one don't feel like allowing people to come in here and disrupt and derail the progress being made simply because they have an anti-Christian agenda. So no, since you obviously show no respect whatsoever to either me or my opponents in this current debate, I'm not going to respond to your earlier post.

And you can't make me. So there. :P

What if everyone plays that game. It would be a very silent thread.


That "game" of choosing not to argue? :? O-kay... Sounds more like a simple choice to me.

A choice to attempt to bully someone out of a thread because they have a different set of views?


I believe Jonny is talking about a choice of either the debaters debating civilly, Jonny himself leaving, or those who refuse to debate civilly leaving. I don't see a use of force or threat. He's simply relating the fact that debate cannot be had below a certain basic level of respect for the debater.

If Jonny has left the thread then fair enough. If he is refusing to reply to another members responses, then that is a different matter.



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29 Aug 2007, 12:20 pm

I've not left the thread.

And I still reserve the right not to respond to people who's idea of debate are to derail threads, bait people, and then throw ad hominems when things don't go their way.

This is a discussion forum, not a bully pulpit. Chosen is showing all the refined debating skills of a pub brawler. In any other religion forum I'm in, he would have been banned already. Just for the past three or four posts in this thread, if not others. There was absolutely no call for the personal attacks I received.

Oh, and in case the moderators haven't been paying attention:

Quote:
"you are an even bigger idiot than I thought you were... Get a life, dickhead ... pull your head out of your arse ... you hypocritical little turd... YOU IGNORANT BLIND SELFISH PRICK ... an over-zealous, over-opinionated, gormless twerp... some irritating little Wally from Bumblef*ck USA ... piss off ... YOU IGNORANT GORMLESS WONDER ... you little sook.. shut up... Mindless American..."

Do we really want a forum where that is the level of debate?

I'd like to get the discussion back on track. LKL brought up some decent examples of oft-quoted-by-skeptics passages that seem to show the Bible saying one thing, and I showed him how, using standard hermeneutic principles common to everyday reading and putting those verses back in the context they belonged, they said nothing of the sort. And we began to discuss the concept of what a "literal" interpretation of the Bible meant, and I thought we were reaching some common understanding. (I'm not really expecting agreement yet, but an understanding of basic points of view is a good first step.)

It would be nice if we started from the derailment and went from there. Without the ad hominems.


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29 Aug 2007, 12:21 pm

Given the varying nature and differences between any given edition of the Bible, and the sects and subsects of those who follow its teachings, and also the various ways it is taught in different places, I dont think there is a hard and fast answer to "how its supposed to be read."

I attended a Methodist Church, though my grandfather was a Baptist minister, whilst my secondary school was headmastered by a Quaker, and our RE lessons were run by a Catholic. Likewise I married a Catholic, and two of my close friends at school were Jehovahs witnesses. My sons attend a Catholic school, whilst my current partner is Catholic. Thus I have several copies of the Bible, both new and very old, and have either experienced or heard about the ways it is taught, and frankly, Ive never had two sound the same. Added to that are my readings of various christian members interpretations and understandings on this forum from a wide variety of countries.

From all this, I surmise that arguing over how it is supposed to be read is a touch daft, because even the christian faiths are not in agreement over it. The same could be said for its actual content as well, I suppose.

So, the Bible may suggest that the earth is flat in some places, but there seems to be no definitive evidence that it does. To the best of everyones knowledge, the earth is NOT flat. How does the one reconcile with the other? Assuming that incontrovertible evidence of a Biblical claim to Flatness were uncovered, how would that be reconciled with the evidence that the Earth is anything BUT flat?

It would appear that the non-christian issue with the book is its mutable nature. It does appear that Christianity has a tendency to change its mind about which parts of the book are literal and which are figurative as time goes on, and this naturally makes people suspicious about the work as a whole. I recall that at one point, the "Adam and Eve" part of the story was claimed as literal, but in the light of various discoveries, became a much more figurative tale, not meant to be taken literally. This sort of.. flip-flopping I suppose.. doesnt help much, at least to my humble opinion.

As a side note.. it surprises me how vehement many Christians on this forum are, and how arrogant, and superior they seem to be when dealing with non-believers. "Youre wrong and I'm right and God will shove redhot pokers in your eyes for eternity for disagreeing" doesnt seem like a very christian attitude. It seems a bit mean really, and a touch sinful. Pride and arrogance are sins, arent they?


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