To be clear
funeralxempire
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Anti-Zionism isn't "criticism of Israel". Defending anti-Zionism on that basis is unfounded. You are entitled to your beliefs but please own your prejudices.
This is horses**t, quite frankly.
One can believe that a Jewish state is entitled to exist, but not at the cost of the Palestinians. What entitles Israelis to steal Palestinian land? What makes Israelis more entitled to Palestinian land than the Palestinians?
Further, your view inevitably results in conflating Israel's interests with those of the Jewish people, which is itself antisemitic.
Like you say, you're entitled to your own beliefs but please own your prejudices against the victims of Israel's creation.
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"Many of us like to ask ourselves, What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?' The answer is, you're doing it. Right now." —Former U.S. Airman (Air Force) Aaron Bushnell
The death toll and long list of war crimes and human rights violations over the years speak for themselves.
As to your claim that anti-Zionism is antisemitic, would you say that Jews who are anti-Zionist are antisemitic? People can be opposed to philosophical/political ideas without hating the people who buy into them.
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Pew Research report on attitude of US jews towards Israel. Canada is probably not too different. Anti-Zionism per se isn't addressed, however it reports 1 in 10 support BDS which is sort of equivalent.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/
My impression is that Jews in Europe and LATAM are more uniformly Zionist than in NA.
Being an anti-Zionist Jew manifests differently from example to example. How I feel depends on each case. But some are indisputably useful idiots of the pro-Palestinian movement.
I hate the idea that being anti-Zionist is how one gets to be a "good little Jew".
funeralxempire
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There's something deeply ironic about useful idiots for Israel criticizing anyone on the basis of being useful idiots of the pro-Palestinian movement.
My brother in Christ, please look at yourself in the mirror and develop some self-awareness before you embarrass yourself like that.
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I was ashamed of myself when I realised life was a costume party and I attended with my real face
"Many of us like to ask ourselves, What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?' The answer is, you're doing it. Right now." —Former U.S. Airman (Air Force) Aaron Bushnell
I think it’s a bit dangerous to claim that disagreeing with specific philosophical/religious/political ideas makes one antisemitic or bigoted in some other way. Most of us disagree with some tenets of just about any group without hating the people. Not all Jews are even Zionists.
Healthy scrutiny and criticism are crucial when it comes to making progress as far as human institutions are concerned, especially when there are human rights issues to consider.
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“I think Jesus was a compassionate, super-intelligent gay man who understood human problems.”
— Elton John
Hamas wanted the war in Gaza to happen. They attacked Israel on 7 October with the intent of starting that war. Having said that, I believe Binyamin Netanyahu shares some of the blame, but I'm not going to focus on that aspect of the situation.
Hamas leaders don't privately regret the loss of Palestinian life and general suffering in Gaza. To them, the dead are martyrs who contribute to their long-term goal which is annihilation of Israel.
I don't know details of IDF battle plans, however I don't believe the IDF conducts missions into Gaza with the sole purpose of killing as many civilians as possible. They are actually fighting Hamas, however the war is never reported that way except possibly in blatantly pro-Israel news media. Instead, it is being reported as equivalent to the genocide in Rwanda. I think the characterization of the war as a program of genocide is deceitful and misleading. I don't hold Israel responsible for genocide of any sort and any sort of argument predicated on the "fact" of genocide in Gaza is based on an unfounded supposition. Having sad that, I think the war is awful and I accept the premise that civilian deaths and suffering could be lessened. But if that's the case, I would blame Netanyahu and his clique rather than blame Israel as a nation or Zionism as a "philosophy".
anti-Zionism is the belief that the Jewish state shouldn't exist. Simply by that definition, it is inherently antisemitic.
Anti-Zionism isn't "criticism of Israel". Defending anti-Zionism on that basis is unfounded. You are entitled to your beliefs but please own your prejudices.
Iran has a decades-long animosity towards Israel. Setting aside their reasons, it is clear that Iran is actively supporting Hamas and Hezbollah and without that support, those two organizations wouldn't have the limitless resources on which they continue to draw to wage war on Israel. So Iran does have a lot of responsibility for the bloodshed.
I am expressing these views. I won't attempt point-by-point rebuttals of others' views. I'm not going to be able to change anyone else's opinion.
That's a disqualifying view given the videos that they themselves have been releasing and the lack of anywhere for the civilians to actually go with the borders locked up and the IDF bombing major parts of the country and refusing to permit humanitarian aid into the area.
My brother in Christ, please look at yourself in the mirror and develop some self-awareness before you embarrass yourself like that.
I for one believe that it's possible to be disgusted by disgusting acts committed on both sides. However, Israel is in a much stronger position to end the conflict by permitting the people of the occupied areas to have the basic necessities to conduct their lives without fear of settlers coming in and stealing their land.
My brother in Christ, please look at yourself in the mirror and develop some self-awareness before you embarrass yourself like that.
I for one believe that it's possible to be disgusted by disgusting acts committed on both sides. However, Israel is in a much stronger position to end the conflict by permitting the people of the occupied areas to have the basic necessities to conduct their lives without fear of settlers coming in and stealing their land.
That would awefully nice of them.. to permit them to go back home . To whose Land ..??
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My brother in Christ, please look at yourself in the mirror and develop some self-awareness before you embarrass yourself like that.
I for one believe that it's possible to be disgusted by disgusting acts committed on both sides. However, Israel is in a much stronger position to end the conflict by permitting the people of the occupied areas to have the basic necessities to conduct their lives without fear of settlers coming in and stealing their land.
That would awefully nice of them.. to permit them to go back home . To whose Land ..??
Perhaps give back the land that the Israeli settlers have been stealing? Which is kind of the problem, this has been allowed to go on for so long that the Israeli government can't easily give the land back.
funeralxempire
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Joined: 27 Oct 2014
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Posts: 29,284
Location: Right over your left shoulder
My brother in Christ, please look at yourself in the mirror and develop some self-awareness before you embarrass yourself like that.
I for one believe that it's possible to be disgusted by disgusting acts committed on both sides. However, Israel is in a much stronger position to end the conflict by permitting the people of the occupied areas to have the basic necessities to conduct their lives without fear of settlers coming in and stealing their land.
I agree that it's possible to be disgusted by actions on both sides.
I also agree with your however.
I'd also say it's unfair to compare people defending themselves from being abused with the abuser, especially when the abuser has a large network of flying monkeys who run cover whenever they're engaged in abuse and when their abuse is heavily subsidized by those same flying monkeys.
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I was ashamed of myself when I realised life was a costume party and I attended with my real face
"Many of us like to ask ourselves, What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?' The answer is, you're doing it. Right now." —Former U.S. Airman (Air Force) Aaron Bushnell
My brother in Christ, please look at yourself in the mirror and develop some self-awareness before you embarrass yourself like that.
I for one believe that it's possible to be disgusted by disgusting acts committed on both sides. However, Israel is in a much stronger position to end the conflict by permitting the people of the occupied areas to have the basic necessities to conduct their lives without fear of settlers coming in and stealing their land.
I agree that it's possible to be disgusted by actions on both sides.
I also agree with your however.
I'd also say it's unfair to compare people defending themselves from being abused with the abuser, especially when the abuser has a large network of flying monkeys who run cover whenever they're engaged in abuse and when their abuse is heavily subsidized by those same flying monkeys.
I can't really argue with that. I'm not sure what the proper solution to this is when the US won't stop supporting Israel no matter how heinous the crimes are. I personally, would have considered voting for Harris in spite of how little interest she has in men's issues and the problems with the last 3 primaries being rigged, but she's not giving any indication that it's not going to be more of the same with respect to Israel.
That being said, India opted to go the other route via non-violence and it wasn't because Gandhi and the leadership was above violence, it was because it was easier to turn the international community against the British by making the difference and abuses so obvious that nobody could argue with it. Especially the folks back home that were ultimately able to vote for politicians that did or didn't support maintaining the presence.
That would be "inherently antisemitic" only if one believes that every ethnic group except Jews has the right to an ethno-state, or if one believes that it's okay for some ethnic groups, but not for Jews, to create ethno-states by forcible ethnic cleansing (which is indeed a key part of how Israel was created).
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