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Vexcalibur
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22 Jan 2008, 10:07 pm

elvenmage wrote:
Can you give me some proof of it's existence?

This isn't meant as a trick question or anything, it's just that i'd like to know why people actually beleive in a god.

Thanks. 8)


I can't.

Now give me a proof of his inexistence.

You can't.

So, I say we go on believing or not believing in whatever we please.



ouinon
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24 Jan 2008, 3:35 am

Angelus-Mortis wrote:
maybe one reason why people still believe in God is because they think it's easier to not think at all and say, God takes away all my problems. "I don't understand why this is so, but then that must mean it's because of God". "If I don't understand it, it's because the explanation is God". Simply by believing in God and using him to explain everything away, you are taking away the reasoning of "why" things happen or "how" and replacing it with something that may not necessarily be factual, but is easier to fall upon--you don't even need to do your homework, just say "God did it"--how easy is that? Scientific honesty would never admit such a fallacious statement, and saying "God did it" as a crutch for everything, as it evades any kind of rational thought or reasoning.
Actually it doesn't. Not necessarily. It can, but only if you are disshonest with your self.
There are always some things at some times in your life which you can not "finally"/firmly attribute to any agency or cause, however much you analyse the elements, that you can not make any clearer at that moment; it doesn't mean that you stop thinking; it just means you accept that you do not know, may never know, or may know in a weeks time, but at that moment you don't and can not get a clearer idea.

Rather than filing this under "unknown" which is potentially scary, anxiety inducing, adrenalin provoking, tiring, and preoccupying, because it puts one in permanent fight-or-flight mode, the rustling in the bushes which despite all investigation and thought has remained unattributable to anything at this moment, you can choose to "believe" that it is god. And lo, can concentrate on something else, until such time as have new/more data. Or until the brain, at rest, working unconsciously on the problem, comes up with the answer.

One example of this sort of situation is the current state of knowledge about Aspergers and Autism. At the moment it is impossible to "finally" attribute agency or cause in the case of autism. Can spend a lot of time thinking it is because of this, then that, then the other one of many dozens of reasons; can keep at it, the analysis, the reading, the references, the eye open, the ear cocked, but unless are a scientist working on it can get no further. So instead of constantly experiencing myself as "me for reasons unknown, possibly contradictory, each one of which will imply different things about me and society etc", or holding to one explanation out of blind faith, I can decide to believe that i have aspergers characteristics because of god.

It doesn't stop me thinking, attributing, assigning, ascribing, cause and agency; it just makes the unknown into something positive in its own right rather than merely an absence of knowledge. And it switches off my fight or flight reaction which otherwise consumes all of my energy, attention, etc, and when running over long periods provokes lots of obsessive compulsive behaviours too.
It doesn't stop me thinking, ( attributing , assigning, and ascribing agency and cause, etc) because in fact when i am doing that that i feel most awake. Right out there seeing new perspectives. Dizzying, exhilarating, satisfying. But i need to know, and to be able to accept, when i simply CAN NOT go any further.

It reminds me of a big wall painting i worked on for months, (15 years ago now) . There began to be parts of it which i simply couldn't get right. All over the painting, large and small pieces that however i filled them in didn't work. I fiddled, and dithered, and altered, and re-altered, until one night, in the middle of the night, in a heart stopping act of recklessness, of " i have nothing to lose, because it's not working anyway as it is", I took pure red paint and simply filled in every single bit which had been driving me up the wall.
And suddenly the painting was finished. it was done, and was glorious; was probably the best thing i have ever painted too. I think believing in god is maybe a bit like that.

I don't, can't, know everything, and yet classifying what i cannot know ( at any time) as "just" the unknown does not value it. It does not admit of the unknown being as complex and rich in detail as the known, it makes it look like shadow; like a dark murky mass. When it isn't. But I have serious trouble "seeing" the unknown as anything but murk until i think "it's god".

Job. Chapter 38. " Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed" . Doesn't mean i have to stop thinking, just that i needn't be afraid of when i can't get any further any more. Because that's where god is.

NB: I'm coming from the perspective, outlined on my thread "Believe in Aliens Instead of God", which proposes that religious belief is an accidental side effect of developments in cognitive function during the last 50,000 years, concerned with attributing agency and cause to things, which was an important factor in survival, but which when overactive, "overgrown", practically "creates" religious belief. I'm one of these dysfunctional people!! :wink:

:)



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24 Jan 2008, 8:27 am

Realise, ... i'm very slow, :) ... that I'm surrounded by the unknown. Most people, for instance, seem like total murk, deep dark shadows of the unknown, who might aswell be zombies for the effect they have on me.
The inside of my body. etc etc
The "unknown" is everywhere.
To go very far in any one direction has been like a spearhead movement, advancing far ahead of the rest of my forces, going into the dark with the unknown on all sides. Scary. Having to keep alert, attributing agency and cause for everything along the way. The unknown as hostile/enemy territory to be infiltrated, invaded, colonised. Whereas if it's god, i am no longer in a combat situation. The unknown is no longer something to fight, but to make contact with.

I've been living like someone under seige, or all alone in enemy territory. Jittery. Don't know what effect this new perspective will have; will see!! :) 8) Interesting though!

What is it someone ( Twoshots) said, that Thomas Aquinas said, ... that god was the "first efficient cause" ? That's almost exactly what i mean about religious belief and the tendency in some people to attribute agency and cause constantly, which is exhausting and disabling, if there is no "first efficient cause" to account for all the times that can't do it, ascribe cause/agency/etc, sufficiently to relax. After all, who here knows everything? How could anyone know everything? As God is described as saying in Job CH 38;."do you know...?.. were you there when?... do you know when?... do you know how many?... etc. For people driven to attribute agency and cause this is perhaps an agonising state to be in, without "god".

:) :D



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24 Jan 2008, 2:58 pm

skafather84 wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Everything has to have a beginning



so who created god, then? your model falls apart from the first point.


This post is long, but you should read the whole thing. It will open your eyes. I am not biased, as I am a former athiest.

I don't think human beings are meant to understand or know what God is.

To prove the existence of God is impossible, because science does not explain anything. We cannot even understand why we sleep at night. Of the thousands of years of the best and brightest humans dedicating their lives to science, we cannot even understand the simplest of things on earth, like what sleep is! How can you ask, based on this same scientific model, what God is and where he came from?

There's no right answer to your question, because proving God by using the mere trivial and flawed scientific methods of Humans is impossible.

How do we know what oxygen is, if our understanding of molecules is flawed? The entire scientific theory about EVERYTHING can fall apart if even the slightest basic element is incorrect. Even the most basic scientific elements may not be true -- simply because as Humans we cannot comprehend them, or see them in a different dimension or in some other way that we are not physically able to! It might seem right to us, but how do we know, if the ones who created the theories, are also judging the answers?

Who decided that Humans can see everything from every angle? What if we are not built to understand everything? We think we are the top of the chain...but how do we know that?

There's not too much we know. We like to THINK we do, but in the end, we don't know much of anything at all. How do we even know how much we can comprehend if all we know is what we think is true?

How are we to know who created God? Much less ask for proof. And proof based on what? Human theories that are deemed correct by other Humans?

Even the Great White Shark in it's superiority in the ocean, does not know there is life above water. It thinks it rules the ocean, and knows all. Science is based off of humans believing we know everything on earth. How do we even know if earth is real, or if this dimension is real? How do we know what a dimension is? How do we know what's beyond this earth? Because of some math formulas and because we put some puzzle pieces together that we think is correct? If we are solely the ones who judge what is scientifically right, who tells us we are wrong? No one. So we continue researching and believing, not truly knowing if what we discover is real.

Just because we don't understand something, does that mean we aren't meant to understand? Or does it mean that can we understand everything, but with the help of science?

How can you ask such grand questions such as the existence of God, when science cannot even explain why we sleep, or why we dream?

It's ignorant to think humans know everything, and can prove it scientifically. There are certain things we are not meant to understand and that our brains can't understand, no matter how hard we try. We can't even cure the common cold, and you're trying to use science to prove a God?

So to answer your question, God can't be proven. It's only a matter of faith, that individual people experience that can't be chalked up to coincidence or good timing. It's our individual life experiences and tragedies and a hope for something good in a world full of nothing but evil. Only the most sheltered people say we live in a world of "good." The truth; we live in a world of EVIL, greed, corruption, poverty, hunger and death.

God is the light at the end of that tunnel.

Science and religion are equal in that both are not provable. We accept science because Humans judge what is right...but how do us mere Humans know what's right and wrong? With religion, we have something inside our hearts and minds, like sleep, which cannot be explained scientifically, but we know it's there.

I refuse to believe that all of this...the earth, the water...is all a coincidence or some random cosmic event that occurred billions of years ago. The next smartest species under Human Beings can, if it concentrates hard enough, break open a coconut using a rock. Us Humans, on the other hand, can fly into outer space and shoot laser breams into eyeballs and reshape corneas. How can you believe the huge gap between humans and animals are coincidental? Is it so hard to believe we weren't an accident?

It's not scientific. It's faith.

Your question will never go answered because the basic element of being a human, is flawed.

Not everything is scientific and black and white. The day when we understand the science behind every single element in the universe and beyond, will be the day we can even begin to comprehend the idea of God, our creator.



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25 Jan 2008, 3:18 am

stevechoi wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Everything has to have a beginning



so who created god, then? your model falls apart from the first point.


Blah blah blah


We can't cure "the common cold" because it evolves, much likes other diseases that are making a come back. And because it proves evolution the Bible is more or less disproved as a literal interpretation of "Gods Word" destroying your arguement with one mighty sentence.

Btw your understanding of Science is flawed, might want to upgrade your 19th century info. :D


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25 Jan 2008, 6:23 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
elvenmage wrote:
Can you give me some proof of it's existence?

This isn't meant as a trick question or anything, it's just that i'd like to know why people actually beleive in a god.

Thanks. 8)


I can't.

Now give me a proof of his inexistence.

You can't.

So, I say we go on believing or not believing in whatever we please.


Have you ever heard of the burden of proof? I'm a believer my self, but just because something can't be disproved, doesn't mean that it exists.

The universe itself couldn't have been created out of nothing, and that's why I believe in God. An omnipotent being is superior to the natural laws and therefore the question of what created God is invalid.


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Vexcalibur
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25 Jan 2008, 7:03 pm

Reodor_Felgen wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
elvenmage wrote:
Can you give me some proof of it's existence?

This isn't meant as a trick question or anything, it's just that i'd like to know why people actually beleive in a god.

Thanks. 8)


I can't.

Now give me a proof of his inexistence.

You can't.

So, I say we go on believing or not believing in whatever we please.


Have you ever heard of the burden of proof? I'm a believer my self, but just because something can't be disproved, doesn't mean that it exists.

The universe itself couldn't have been created out of nothing, and that's why I believe in God. An omnipotent being is superior to the natural laws and therefore the question of what created God is invalid.

I am just just that these discussions are worthless.

Just because something can't be disproved it doesn't mean it exists, and just because something can't be proved it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. So, let's just keep walking and let everyone believe in whatever they want.



stevechoi
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26 Jan 2008, 1:54 am

Deus_ex_machina wrote:
stevechoi wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Everything has to have a beginning



so who created god, then? your model falls apart from the first point.


Blah blah blah


We can't cure "the common cold" because it evolves, much likes other diseases that are making a come back. And because it proves evolution the Bible is more or less disproved as a literal interpretation of "Gods Word" destroying your arguement with one mighty sentence.

Btw your understanding of Science is flawed, might want to upgrade your 19th century info. :D




Actually, evolution has yet to be proven, by a long shot. There is still a huge gap of missing links, not to mention many inconsistencies in bone structure in apes and humans. Like all of science, this is a theory. So the Bible is not "destroyed" by any means.

The Theory of Evolution proves nothing about anything. It's simply apes and humans, and bits and pieces of bone in between rocks and dust, with missing links everywhere and answers no where. You can argue humans used to be related to fish or birds if you wanted to. Bad example.

"The common cold" is just one of infinite examples of what we don't understand. The list is too long, and the common cold "evolving" is just a sorry excuse. It's the most common sickness in the world, and we can't fix it.

My point is, we cannot even comprehend the simplest of science, yet we try to reason with the universe and make theories on evolution and the creation of mankind. Who are we to theorize about the moon, when we haven't even seen the earth?

My point is that religion and science on are equal ground; neither can be proven. However, I choose to believe in something I can't see or prove, because it gives me faith and a strength that I can't obtain from this world.

Also, how is my understanding of science "flawed?" Is not Science based on theory, just like religion is based on faith? What's the difference in terms of logic?

Tell me where my understanding of science is flawed, I would like to know...and on what basis.



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26 Jan 2008, 2:00 am

Reodor_Felgen wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
elvenmage wrote:
Can you give me some proof of it's existence?

This isn't meant as a trick question or anything, it's just that i'd like to know why people actually beleive in a god.

Thanks. 8)


I can't.

Now give me a proof of his inexistence.

You can't.

So, I say we go on believing or not believing in whatever we please.


Have you ever heard of the burden of proof? I'm a believer my self, but just because something can't be disproved, doesn't mean that it exists.

The universe itself couldn't have been created out of nothing, and that's why I believe in God. An omnipotent being is superior to the natural laws and therefore the question of what created God is invalid.


Well said. The physical laws we live by are limited, and we would never comprehend or be able to prove something that is superior to our natural laws. Proving God would only be possible if we were on the same level as him...and that's just not the case.



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27 Jan 2008, 10:37 am

stevechoi wrote:
Deus_ex_machina wrote:
stevechoi wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Everything has to have a beginning



so who created god, then? your model falls apart from the first point.


Blah blah blah


We can't cure "the common cold" because it evolves, much likes other diseases that are making a come back. And because it proves evolution the Bible is more or less disproved as a literal interpretation of "Gods Word" destroying your arguement with one mighty sentence.

Btw your understanding of Science is flawed, might want to upgrade your 19th century info. :D




Actually, evolution has yet to be proven, by a long shot. There is still a huge gap of missing links, not to mention many inconsistencies in bone structure in apes and humans. Like all of science, this is a theory. So the Bible is not "destroyed" by any means.

The Theory of Evolution proves nothing about anything. It's simply apes and humans, and bits and pieces of bone in between rocks and dust, with missing links everywhere and answers no where. You can argue humans used to be related to fish or birds if you wanted to. Bad example.

"The common cold" is just one of infinite examples of what we don't understand. The list is too long, and the common cold "evolving" is just a sorry excuse. It's the most common sickness in the world, and we can't fix it.

My point is, we cannot even comprehend the simplest of science, yet we try to reason with the universe and make theories on evolution and the creation of mankind. Who are we to theorize about the moon, when we haven't even seen the earth?

My point is that religion and science on are equal ground; neither can be proven. However, I choose to believe in something I can't see or prove, because it gives me faith and a strength that I can't obtain from this world.

Also, how is my understanding of science "flawed?" Is not Science based on theory, just like religion is based on faith? What's the difference in terms of logic?

Tell me where my understanding of science is flawed, I would like to know...and on what basis.


Did you read what I said or simply respond to it? I honestly tried finding the point where I implied that Evolution and Science are faultless, and couldn't find it. No worries, I'm just talking about your specific God.

And that adds nothing to anything, just mindless rhetoric.

No just one of many things you don't understand. Yeah that's right, mention the common cold when you ignore all the other diseases that have been fixed, or ignore the fact that there's immunisations for colds, or ignore the fact that viruses (As I said) evolve.

I know that it is your point, you made it clear several million times, and have so far refused to back it up with anything other than more arguements. How can I argue against an empty arguement?

Since when? Good for you, I really couldn't care less if you mentioned that you also believe that there's a monster under your bed that eats multiverses.

Is not Theory tested time after time through gruelling trials? Oh that's right you convientently left that part out, you tried to make it look like Science is all about looking at problems and just throwing around ideas, sorry I thought I was in a different conversation, Jesus ****ing Christ I'm so stupid.

Perhaps you should spend a few hours looking at a little website I've found to be very helpful for any Christians who can't seem to grasp the concept of a sensible arguement.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep


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Vexcalibur
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27 Jan 2008, 7:52 pm

Quote:
Actually, evolution has yet to be proven, by a long shot. There is still a huge gap of missing links, not to mention many inconsistencies in bone structure in apes and humans. Like all of science, this is a theory. So the Bible is not "destroyed" by any means.


This is actually very false.

Just let me remind you all that evolution itself, does not disprove the existence of God, it sure would disprove the bible, but hey, it is not like we needed evolution for that, the bible is full of things that just didn't happen, at least not in the exact way the bible says so. But either way, there's a lot more evidence pointing to it than there's towards alternative theories or non-theories (creationism - ID) . Anyways, more info: http://www.talkorigins.org/



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27 Jan 2008, 10:16 pm

I learned in Philosophy in Religion class, for every argument about the whether God exists

there in a counter argument. It is up to you whether you wish to believe in God. :roll:


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28 Jan 2008, 12:03 am

Vexcalibur wrote:
Quote:
Actually, evolution has yet to be proven, by a long shot. There is still a huge gap of missing links, not to mention many inconsistencies in bone structure in apes and humans. Like all of science, this is a theory. So the Bible is not "destroyed" by any means.


This is actually very false.

Just let me remind you all that evolution itself, does not disprove the existence of God, it sure would disprove the bible, but hey, it is not like we needed evolution for that, the bible is full of things that just didn't happen, at least not in the exact way the bible says so. But either way, there's a lot more evidence pointing to it than there's towards alternative theories or non-theories (creationism - ID) . Anyways, more info: http://www.talkorigins.org/


Hey stop stealing the point that I was making and the link I was posting! :?


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28 Jan 2008, 8:54 pm

marshall wrote:
Prayer to an omniscient omni-benevolent god doesn’t even make sense. If God already knows exactly what’s best for us what use is it to ask for his help? If God is all knowing and it is his will to help you he will help regardless of whether you ask.

It also doesn’t make any sense that an all knowing god would want us to worship him. I mean, he already knows that he is God and he can do whatever he wills. Why does he need us to tell him how wonderful he is? It all sounds so ridiculous from God's perspective.


Mankind decided at the beginning to reject God and therefore came under the juristdiction of the god of this world who is Satan.

Apart from the Jews, and untill recently, all men worshipped gods of one sort or another, only the Jews and then Jesus opened it up to the gentiles to worship the God of the Bible.

So he wants us to worship him to differanciate us from the worshippers of the other gods and those who worship themselves.

We then become his property whom he will allow to live in the world when his Kingdom comes and he takes back control of the world from the Devil



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28 Jan 2008, 9:29 pm

Quote:
Just because something can't be disproved it doesn't mean it exists, and just because something can't be proved it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. So, let's just keep walking and let everyone believe in whatever they want.


On the contrary, if something can't be disproved, it is a tautology, and completely a construct of our minds, and therefore doesn't exist. Bark with me positivists!


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