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iamnotaparakeet
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06 Mar 2008, 9:35 pm

richardbenson wrote:
how do you know god is real?


Because the brain dies after 30 seconds without oxygen.

richardbenson wrote:
does he "talk" to you?


Not often, but when He has it is not in words or emotions but rather in complete thoughts.

richardbenson wrote:
obviously i admire your faith parakeet


Thanks, I wish I could live it better and more consistently.

richardbenson wrote:
and it appears as god liked doing the miraculous in the past so why not now?


I've seen the one about my dad and that's plenty for me. God still does miracles, it's just not a constant activity to uphold the normative order of things. I.e. superstitions are unnecessary. Even in the Old Testament God was not constantly confusing people with constant miracles. Indeed, if there was no order to go by, how could anything be determined to be of supernatural origin?

richardbenson wrote:
this is kindof like the attitude creationist have reguarding dinosuars. "the bones were put here all over the earth by god to test my faith!" oh please.


I've never heard a creationist say this.

richardbenson wrote:
thanks for praying for me but i doubt jesus will ride up on a harley and take me to tucson rock&gem show :D


I doubt God will show Himself to you in that manner either. But if he does show Himself to you in this way even, I hope you wont write it off.



iamnotaparakeet
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06 Mar 2008, 9:38 pm

richardbenson wrote:
although i did start praying recently to jesus about my lease situation and it was answerd. so i dont know if this was a coicidence or an actual answer to my prayer.


If it can be called a coincidence then it is not undeniable.



richardbenson
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06 Mar 2008, 9:52 pm

richardbenson wrote:
how do you know god is real?

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Because the brain dies after 30 seconds without oxygen.
how does that prove god? are you trying to say hes breathing or breath? and thats why he cant be proved? hm. well ok i think however thats just how our bodys function and really doesnt have anything to do with a supernatural being.
richardbenson wrote:
does he "talk" to you?

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Not often, but when He has it is not in words or emotions but rather in complete thoughts.
so are im guessing there all good thoughts? and the bad thoughts come from the devil? heres the trick, have you ever wonderd why it was ok for people to talk, pray etc, to god but if he answers back it is called schizophrenia? you see thats just what it is, its a medical disease of the brain and frankly i dont know how anyone who "hears god" really hasnt a brain disease
richardbenson wrote:
and it appears as god liked doing the miraculous in the past so why not now?

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Even in the Old Testament God was not constantly confusing people with constant miracles. Indeed, if there was no order to go by, how could anything be determined to be of supernatural origin?
well he shure did alot more in the past thats for shure, i mean citys being destoyed by fire from heaven, wich im shure was related to some sort of volcanic activity, (i think they already proved this, and the "fire from heaven" was really a volcano's lava raining down and destroying stuff. when you lived back then, alot of the so called miricles and so forth can mostley be explained by natural phenomina that the peoples at the time didnt understand, so hence god did it, do things follow rules and order in the universe? yes and no. mostley yes but sometimes no and i doubt god had anything to do with it
richardbenson wrote:
this is kindof like the attitude creationist have reguarding dinosuars. "the bones were put here all over the earth by god to test my faith!" oh please.

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
I've never heard a creationist say this.
they say it all the time, watch tbn sometime and that dude who promotes the creation museum
richardbenson wrote:
thanks for praying for me but i doubt jesus will ride up on a harley and take me to tucson rock&gem show :D

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
I doubt God will show Himself to you in that manner either. But if he does show Himself to you in this way even, I hope you wont write it off.
i'm not going to dismiss the possibility of there being a god, and ill be darned if i try to figure him out if he does exist with human thought concepts and emotions


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marshall
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07 Mar 2008, 1:24 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
richardbenson wrote:
this is kindof like the attitude creationist have reguarding dinosuars. "the bones were put here all over the earth by god to test my faith!" oh please.


I've never heard a creationist say this.


Haha. I think Richard got that one from Bill Hicks.



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07 Mar 2008, 1:57 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
I'm glad I was never taught to believe in St Nick or I'd probably reject God via association too. My mom was the only Christian in my life until dad died and she remarried. If I hadn't seen my dad die and come back to life, I probably would have not been a Christian. I did question how deeply I believed when I was a teenager, but from the historicity of the Bible and studying the Creation-evolution issue from various sources I have decided that theologically the best stance is to be a YEC and that there will eventually be no final conflict between pseudo/quasi-scientists and the Bible and that Natural Revelation and Historical Revelation will one day speak with one voice. To some degree they already do, but it will be much better when there is more certainty to rest on. I look forward to then, although some may not.


I rejected the Santa Claus belief a long time before I ever rejected Christianity. What I was trying to say was that my belief in Christianity always felt phony. It felt like wishful thinking, just like Santa Claus.

It's interesting that you mention studying the creation-evolution issue. I went the same route around the age of 13, yet I ended up coming to the exact opposite conclusion.



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07 Mar 2008, 6:57 am

marshall wrote:
Mybelief in Christianity always felt phony. It felt like wishful thinking, just like Santa Claus.

Why do people think there's a problem with wishful thinking when it comes to believing in god, (despite the fact that it need not lead you into any kind of illusions, delusions, error, etc, and is not in flagrant contradiction of anything that you know)? Why are people who believe in god so often accused of this?

It's only like a mathematician who has a problem and whatever they do with it, turn it around, examine it from every conceivable angle, it has no solution unless posit x. The existence of this whatever thing/x suddenly solves the problem. Are you going to say to the mathematician that their solution is no good, it's just wishful thinking?

My belief in god is like that.

It's true that certain information was helpful to me in accepting the proposition; the recent work on the psychology of religion for instance which suggests that a religious tendency, belief in god, may be a side-effect/by-product, of developments in the brain in the last 50,000 years in Fluid Intelligence, that is pattern recognition, finding meaning in confusion, attribution of cause etc.

The theory is that these mental functions, very good for our survival, created a "space" which in some/many humans is "satisfied" by only one thing, belief in god, without which they are always persistently, anxiously, obsessively, compulsively, looking for cause, meaning, and patterns such that life is like one long search with no rest. Like someone in enemy territory who has to stay awake all the time to process information in case is sign of danger.

Also recent work in theories of complexity/complex systems and "emergence". I looked up "emergence" on the net, and the descriptions sound like descriptions of god, just without using the word.

I think belief in god is like accepting "0" in maths. I'm intensely grateful for its existence, and regret all the years of not using it. You can imagine, what trying to do maths without 0 would be like. :wink:

8)



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07 Mar 2008, 7:47 am

Because many people on both sides - Christians and persecutors alike, are dingleberries - which are usually the most outspoken group in any conflict of interests. They aren't exactly the majority, they just do a great job of making it sound as if they are through their own self-importance.



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07 Mar 2008, 9:36 am

ouinon wrote:
marshall wrote:
Mybelief in Christianity always felt phony. It felt like wishful thinking, just like Santa Claus.
Why do people think there's a problem with wishful thinking when it comes to believing in god, (despite the fact that it need not lead you into any kind of illusions, delusions, error, etc, and is not in flagrant contradiction of anything that you know)? Why are people who believe in god so often accused of this?
Because usually this invisible god instructs people to donate monies, hate certain people, look down on others, be complete thugs that go into neighbourhoods trying to convert innocent unsespecting knowing people, and im shure christianity would be running the country if there wasnt seperation of church and state. did you know the vatican has a seat at the UN? and is considerd by many nations to be a friggin soverant country? so really this invisible guy is alot like santa clause. suposidly lives in heaven, santa clause live in the north pole. or does he? :twisted: atleast santa doesnt have a bible, has cute reindeer and doesnt offend anyone. exept for well, the christian! gotta keep it real you know, because christmas is all about jesus :roll:


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iamnotaparakeet
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07 Mar 2008, 3:11 pm

Quote:
Quote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Because the brain dies after 30 seconds without oxygen.

how does that prove god? are you trying to say hes breathing or breath? and thats why he cant be proved? hm. well ok i think however thats just how our bodys function and really doesnt have anything to do with a supernatural being.


No, I'm referring to the fact that my dad was dead for a few minutes before he was brought back to life. Not by CPR, but with my mom and a friend from Church praying over him that he would come back so we could take him to the hospital. I was 13 at the time and he was not breathing and had no pulse as well as his eyes were wide open and had the white part of his eyes turn yellow (which may have been due to chemotherapy, but he was still dead.) That is the largest miracle I have seen although I have seen and experienced others more personal, this is why I remained a Christian.



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07 Mar 2008, 3:17 pm

maybe it means something, maybe it doesnt. eaither way sorry to hear about your dad dude. cancer is a terrible disease



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07 Mar 2008, 3:48 pm

richardbenson wrote:
maybe it means something, maybe it doesnt. eaither way sorry to hear about your dad dude. cancer is a terrible disease


Thanks. What's really bad is that the hospital stopped the chemotherapy short and the cancer grew back. If we had been a wealthy family they wouldn't have stopped. I hate the medical policies and supposed health benefits of this nation. People are all equally valuable and healthcare shouldn't cost. America sucks in this sense.



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07 Mar 2008, 4:07 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Thanks. What's really bad is that the hospital stopped the chemotherapy short and the cancer grew back. If we had been a wealthy family they wouldn't have stopped. I hate the medical policies and supposed health benefits of this nation. People are all equally valuable and healthcare shouldn't cost. America sucks in this sense.
wow how sad. if you guys were poor couldnt you get on medicaid? i was on it for awile, and actually they paid for my hernia surgury that i had. i could imagine that if i had cancer or any other life threatening illness they would do the same.

i might get back on it, once i move out in less than a month :?


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iamnotaparakeet
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07 Mar 2008, 4:34 pm

richardbenson wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Thanks. What's really bad is that the hospital stopped the chemotherapy short and the cancer grew back. If we had been a wealthy family they wouldn't have stopped. I hate the medical policies and supposed health benefits of this nation. People are all equally valuable and healthcare shouldn't cost. America sucks in this sense.
wow how sad. if you guys were poor couldnt you get on medicaid? i was on it for awile, and actually they paid for my hernia surgury that i had. i could imagine that if i had cancer or any other life threatening illness they would do the same.

i might get back on it, once i move out in less than a month :?
My mom says she doesn't know why we didn't have medicaid. We were going to Parkland and they didn't require insurance back in 99. He died at VA though, which we probably should have been going to first but didn't.



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07 Mar 2008, 10:06 pm

i am so sorry dude. even though you are a christian, i still like you and couldnt imagine what it would be like to live without knowing my biological dad wasnt alive. my real dad is alive but a loser :lol:

but he is alive/ and you saw your dad die! how freaking f'd up is that? i'd be a killer by now if i was you, seeing such

you have a tremendous resialliance about you and i like it :)


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08 Mar 2008, 4:21 am

There are two things. First people have used Christianity as an excuse to do horrible, horrible things, and while it may be wrong to blame Christianity for this, it can be easy to lose focus.

The other factor is that many people's de facto state is agnosticism or atheism, it would take some pretty strong evidence to have any rational reason to sway that view to theism, let alone any specific religion. In the absence of any evidence (personal or otherwise) there's no real way to honestly believe in God, and so the concept of sending non-believers to hell seems evil on an incomparable scale. Imagine if you were given a similar punishment for believing in God.

As far as this life is concerned religion is a tool, albeit an incredibly dangerous one. Possessing the tool doesn't make you good or evil, oppressive or easy going but people tend to categorise and it is the negative traits that always stand out.



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08 Mar 2008, 2:59 pm

To quote Josh McDowell, Christian speaker and author, "Rules without relationships equals rebellion."

He was talking about parenting, but I think his words could apply to the question, "Why the hostility?" Why the hostility? Because too many Christians, in my experience, are too busy trying to apply rules to the rest of us without first building relationships. When they do deal with others who do not think the way they do, they do not treat them as equals but as souls to be won, something I find just as objectionable as someone using another person as a object for sex. Either way, you are not looking at the whole person as a person of value in and of his or herself. I am not a pair of shoes to be tried on and discarded if not the right fit, I am not a latrine to discharge your bodily fluids in, and I am not another notch on your Bible. I am me, unique, and according to the BEST in Judeo-Christian tradition, a person worthy to be honored and respected because I am made in the image of God (and for Christians, whatever you do to me, you do to Jesus himself). That's pretty heavy stuff, and if those who believed it took it seriously you'd better believe there would be a big difference in how the world operates. It doesn't say in the Bible that I am of worth only if I adopt your beliefs, it says that I am of worth right here, right now, just the way I am, and how you treat me DOES matter.

There was a Native American leader who, upon reading the New Testament, said something like "It is strange that the white people aren't any better after having had this book for so long." Which is my next point. Yes, atheists have done and continue to do horrible things, but the reason that Christians are held MORE accountable is that they themselves have told the world that their morality is superior. You cannot do that, then turn around and hide behind the excuse that "we are not perfect." If you are running a business and you claim that your product or service is better than the competition's, and you list the ways that it is so, then you'd better be able to follow through on your customers' reasonable expectations that this is so. Because you have raised the standards. Last night I took a group of people to a local restaurant that I had been assured was one of the best in the area. Let me tell you, the service we received was the worst I have ever received anywhere. Abyssmal doesn't even begin to describe it. Will I go back? Not on your life! Will I recommend it? No! Yes, the manager came out with apologies, but the damage had already been done. Oh, they had a set of excuses why our experience was so bad, and they were all legitimate, but, and this is the point I am trying to make here with this comparison, once it had been pointed out to staff that we were not satisfied with the treatment we were receiving and why, they made NO attempt to improve the service! And so it is with a lot of Christian behavior. They acknowledge that yes, this kind of behavior alienates people, but they do not do anything to change it. It is business as usual. And just as the waitress felt I was being hostile to her by pointedly refusing to pay the tip that had been added to our bill (insult to injury), so do these Christians carry on about the world's hostility.