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Apuleyo
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10 Apr 2008, 4:04 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Apuleyo wrote:
ROFL, maybe the whole thing is a tongue-in-cheek joke!! XD!! ! Because no one is THAT naive and stupid!! XD

[joking]TOP REASONS WHY GAY MARRIAGE IS WRONG:

1-BECAUSE ALL MARRIAGES SUCK

2-MARRIED PEOPLE DON'T HAVE SEX, AND GAY PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO HAVE SEX

3-MARRIED GAY PEOPLE WOULD ARGUE ALL THE TIME AND THE FASHION BUSINESS WILL SUFFER THE LOSS OF THEIR BEST MINDS

SO FOR THE SAKE OF GAY'S HAPPINESS, DON'T LET THEM MARRY. THEY WILL THANK US LATER![/joking]


Good God, are all gays this jaded? My own Ma & Pa happen to have a wonderful marriage ... since 1974. You should come to Oakville and tell them why their marriage sucks. I know for a fact that married people do indeed have sex. I was born in 1979, my sister in 1977, and my other sister in 1982. None of us were born out of wedlock. :?

. One's sexual orientataion neither negates nor guarantees a successful union.


I was joking, suggesting that nobody should impose gay people something as "horrible" as marriage.
Although I was kidding, most marriages really do suck =P


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Griff
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10 Apr 2008, 4:57 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Easy, Griff! Easy.
Look, man, I'm not in a big raving fit over YOU, and I really apologize for any impression that I may have given that I was.

Okay, let me explain: I'm really freaking out over these people who are going with the "crime against nature" theory on homosexuality. That mentality is just plain WRONG, and the results of it were horrible. They ARE horrible in those countries in which this mentality is still used for forming laws regarding homosexuality. People are being persecuted and hunted down like animals in some countries because of this mentality. I don't hold you to blame for that, SM.

My issue with you is something completely different. It's not even that big a deal. Some of my BEST FRIENDS have offended me at some point in our relationship, okay? As far as YOU are concerned, I'm just irked. You're under a completely different classification of negative emotion.

Quote:
I wasn't trying to be insulting,
I know you don't MEAN to cause me to feel offended, and I know you're just going by what you believe in. I understand fully that you're not an advocate of restoring the sodomy laws. I understand fully that you don't advocate treating homosexuals the same as you would advocate treating, for example, pedophiles. I understand that fully.

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and I'm not ignorant.
Dude, I know you're not ignorant, and I know you're not crazy. You have made this clear. As long as you're neither willfully ignorant nor crazy as a fruitbat, you are AT LEAST on the PATH toward being alright with me. I see you as having the right BASIC intentions. I want to make this clear before we go any further on the gay marriage issue.

All the shouting and raving I've done on this thread is NOT directed at you, and it's not over the issue of gay marriage. It's just been me freaking out over the idea of the sodomy laws coming back or something else horrible like that. Maybe I'm just being paranoid or something. Between Parakeet going off on the Natural Law theory, though, and Zendell pulling up quotes from Leviticus and Acts, I just flipped out. I just completely flipped out. It wasn't directed at you. I really want to very much stress this.

We, me and you, have a disagreement on the gay marriage thing, but, hey, we can work it out. We can have compromises like, for example, civil union laws or something similar. I'm not fully happy with it, but that's part of what compromise is all about. I'm not even extremely worried about the gay marriage thing. Just don't even worry about it. We can work it out. Peace and compromise and all that stuff, you know?

Two different subjects. Two completely different subjects. One puts me in a state of paranoia, and the other just kinda gets me irked. The former is NOT something that can be worked out with compromise because I consider outright, baldfaced injustice as a perfectly valid premise for civil disobedience. The latter IS something that can be worked out with compromise, and I expect myself and other gays and lesbians to sort this gay marriage crap out through normal legal, social, and political channels.

You see, SM, YOUR position is something that I can handle myself rationally and maturely over. It's not something that has me waking up in cold sweats in the middle of the night. It's not something that I have traumatic nightmares over. The worst thing it's going to do is cause me to whine and be annoying, and you can bet your ass that I WILL complain about it.



slowmutant
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10 Apr 2008, 5:06 pm

Okay, then ... I think.

BTW the sodomy laws are like a restrictive curfew for gays, or is it more than that?



skafather84
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10 Apr 2008, 5:08 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Okay, then ... I think.

BTW the sodomy laws are like a restrictive curfew for gays, or is it more than that?


an offense you can be sent to jail for.


/heard a story of a jealous gay guy who called the cops on his gay crush while he was with another gay dude doing some gay stuff and the cops arrested him from within his own home. which is really gay.



DejaQ
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10 Apr 2008, 5:26 pm

You know, I've never been a fan of state-endorsed marriage. Normally I'd be against gay marriage (but also against straight marriage :P) with the argument that it should be a purely spiritual institution. However, I feel as long as the state endorses straight marriage, it is required to endorse gay marriage.

Churches, being separate from the government, can ban gay marriage all they want, but the government does not serve any one faith, so they must respect all lifestyles (within legal boundaries, as previous posters have mentioned).



Griff
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10 Apr 2008, 5:33 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Okay, then ... I think.

BTW the sodomy laws are like a restrictive curfew for gays, or is it more than that?
It was a felony offense in some states, a misdemeanor in others. The last of these laws weren't stricken down until 2003, when the Supreme Court invalidated them finally. It was ten years in my homestate of North Carolina. The worst I know of is Idaho, where it was five to life. These laws were not rendered ineffective until 2003, when Lawrence v. Texas completely invalidated them. Dude, these things were no joke, okay? They were evil. They were wrong.



MR_BOGAN
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10 Apr 2008, 5:39 pm

I don't have any problem with gay marriage. Doesn't bother me.

I think people that ague against gay marriage etc, probably have homosextual tendencies and they are affraid to face up to them.



slowmutant
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10 Apr 2008, 6:07 pm

Quote:
heard a story of a jealous gay guy who called the cops on his gay crush while he was with another gay dude doing some gay stuff and the cops arrested him from within his own home. which is really gay.


As gays and straights, here's one thing we definitely have in common: sexual jealousy. Not a good thing, not a positve, but nonetheless a reminder of our common humanity.



greenblue
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10 Apr 2008, 8:08 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Is debate welcome? I'm confused. :?

Always.


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LiendaBalla
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11 Apr 2008, 7:19 am

Griff wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
Easy, Griff! Easy.
Look, man, I'm not in a big raving fit over YOU, and I really apologize for any impression that I may have given that I was.

Okay, let me explain: I'm really freaking out over these people who are going with the "crime against nature" theory on homosexuality. That mentality is just plain WRONG, and the results of it were horrible.


uhm.... I, for one, didn't even mention "crime' or "nature". 'sigh' right after my post... "You lost the battle..!" this and "You filth!" that. What did I do to diserve that? I didn't attack a single person in the thread at that point. I only mentioned what I heard in several church congregations. That's what they said to the attendies. Beleive that it happened or don't, it aint my problem.



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11 Apr 2008, 11:02 am

Lienda, I think what freaked Griff out was that one of the early posters, iamnotaparakeet, did cite "natural law" - that is, he claimed that human sexual organs were "obviously" designed for one and only one form of mating, derived from that a claim that using them in any other fashion was "immoral", then treated both assumptions as axioms, not needing proof.

Problem with that is that natural laws are called that because they are part of nature, woven into the very fabric of the universe, and are thus inviolable. Gravity is universally attractive; this is a natural law. Nothing can go faster than light in an Einsteinian plenum; this is a natural law. When free hydrogen and free oxygen are placed in close proximity and left to themselves, they will combine to make water; this is a natural law. You can interfere with the functioning of some laws with the application of others (using Bernoulli's principle and thrust to temporarily overcome gravitation, for instance), but none of the laws need enforcement, because, as they are natural, you can't break them.

It becomes plain, then, that if a "law" can be violated, it is not a "natural law", but either a misunderstanding of nature or a law of men. Same-sex preference tends to be selected against evolutionarily, but some studies indicate that the genetic complex leading to male homosexuality is probably carried in the mother's genes, thus it may not be eliminated by evolution. (In some species, in fact, it can provide a benefit. Among wolves, for instance, only the pack alpha gets to mate while he's present, so when a female goes into heat, the lower males must relieve their stresses with each other. Bonobo chimpanzees use all manner of sexual relations for group-bonding - among them, strict heterosexuality would result in ejection from the troop, and a single bonobo won't last long. Male dolphins use same-sex contact as a dominance game - the one who assumes the position generally held by a female during mating has submitted to the authority of the other one.)


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LiendaBalla
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11 Apr 2008, 3:34 pm

ahhh. Me see, my bad. *bows to deaconblues* I heareth thee, oh wise one. :D



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21 Apr 2008, 5:35 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles

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As symbol of masculinity and warriorship, Heracles also had a number of pederastic male beloveds. Plutarch, in his Eroticos, maintains that Heracles' eromenoi (male lovers) were beyond counting. Of these, the one most closely linked to Heracles is the Theban Iolaus. Their story, an initiatory myth thought to be of ancient origin, contains many of the elements of the Greek pederastic apprenticeship in which the older warrior is the educator and the younger his helper in battle. Thus, Iolaus is Heracles's charioteer and squire. In a notable testament to the closeness between the two heroes, Iolaus is also Heracles' symbomos, (altar-sharer). Unlike all other heroes and gods, each of whom had his or her own altar, sacrifices to either hero could be offered at one and the same altar.[10]

Also in keeping with the initiatory pattern of the relationship, Heracles in the end gave his pupil a wife, symbolizing his entry into adulthood. Iolaus's ritual functions paralleled his relationship with Heracles. He was a patron of male love—Plutarch reports that down to his own time, male couples would go to Iolaus's tomb in Thebes to swear an oath of loyalty to the hero and to each other[11]—and he presided over initiations in the historical era, such as the one at Agyrion in central Sicily.[12] The tomb of Iolaus is also mentioned by Pindar.[13]



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21 Apr 2008, 5:59 pm

One thing is wrong in list when it said greece and rome gay sex happend in greece and rome alot and their is nothing wrong with that. If gays want to get married well good for them I belive marrige in genral is unatural do animals have fedelity no they do has many has possible for the survival. that an state sponsore marriage isn't evil because i am an athiest and I don't want to get married in a church. That I thank deconblue for mention to hated evengelical radicals trying to take away our right and increase the intensity of our therorcacy. That and since hitler i am pretty sure its a little bit eaiser to get into heaven if their is a bar because getting into heaven is like limbo and hitler raised the bar so only people who did somthing really horrible is condemned to hell like george w bush will be.


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Awesomelyglorious
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21 Apr 2008, 6:22 pm

Maxrebo wrote:
I belive marrige in genral is unatural do animals have fedelity no they do has many has possible for the survival.

Well, other animals are not the same as humans and they don't have the same psychological behaviors as humans do. Frankly, given the commonness of marriage within human society across cultures, the high costs per child that human beings have, and human possessiveness and other bonding issues, I would think that it is natural for human beings to marry. It is actually less natural for human beings to be strictly monogamous as most past societies had more polygamy, but the reason for the societal shift is thought to be based upon the relative equality of modern societies compared to past societies that had more harems and similar things.
Quote:
That and since hitler i am pretty sure its a little bit eaiser to get into heaven if their is a bar because getting into heaven is like limbo and hitler raised the bar so only people who did somthing really horrible is condemned to hell like george w bush will be.

Yeah, I doubt that Hitler really raised the bar that much. Vlad the Impaler was a ruler who would drink the blood of his foes, and who impaled so many people as to create an intimidating forest of impaled bodies that drove away his foes. Given the number of people who have practiced very terrible things throughout history, I don't think that Hitler really would have changed things. Really though, George Bush is not on the same level as Hitler and I think most rational people would agree if given the evidence.