22 Apr 2008, 9:15 am
22 Apr 2008, 11:00 pm
23 Apr 2008, 4:18 am
23 Apr 2008, 4:31 am
oscuria wrote:
Guess what? Atheism causes war too. How many people died during Communism?
First of all, there has not been a true Communist society on the face of the planet that has lasted more than a couple weeks. Communism is an economic system where every person in the entire society is equal. The only way Communism can exist is in junction with a Pure Democracy (not a Republic like america) where every citizen votes to make decisions that affect the whole society, and there are no real "leaders".
Secondly and most importantly, it was not Atheism that caused a war. I assume by "communism" you mean the Soviet Union and Stalin's rule? If so, Stalin did not declare war against anyone, it was Hitler that declared war on Stalin, violating their pact. It is true that Stalin did kill many of his own people in purges, but this had nothing to do with religion, it was because Stalin was a FASCIST DICTATOR! Fascist dictators do this sort of thing.
Note: In a true Communist Democracy, there are obviously no dictators. The supposed "communism" that existed was warped from Marx's and Lenin's teachings. The Fascist governments of the Soviet Union, Korea, China, and Vietnam were falsely LABELED communism in order to seed disgust of the word into the public.
Edit: Before anyone makes the ignorant comment about Hitler being atheist, Hitler was a Catholic and had the support of the Vatican in eliminating the Jews. More precisely, the Vatican had a platform of non-involvement; though that's not to say they didn't like the idea.
23 Apr 2008, 5:46 am
23 Apr 2008, 6:13 pm
Legato wrote:
oscuria wrote:
Guess what? Atheism causes war too. How many people died during Communism?
First of all, there has not been a true Communist society on the face of the planet that has lasted more than a couple weeks. Communism is an economic system where every person in the entire society is equal. The only way Communism can exist is in junction with a Pure Democracy (not a Republic like america) where every citizen votes to make decisions that affect the whole society, and there are no real "leaders".
Secondly and most importantly, it was not Atheism that caused a war. I assume by "communism" you mean the Soviet Union and Stalin's rule? If so, Stalin did not declare war against anyone, it was Hitler that declared war on Stalin, violating their pact. It is true that Stalin did kill many of his own people in purges, but this had nothing to do with religion, it was because Stalin was a FASCIST DICTATOR! Fascist dictators do this sort of thing.
Note: In a true Communist Democracy, there are obviously no dictators. The supposed "communism" that existed was warped from Marx's and Lenin's teachings. The Fascist governments of the Soviet Union, Korea, China, and Vietnam were falsely LABELED communism in order to seed disgust of the word into the public.
Edit: Before anyone makes the ignorant comment about Hitler being atheist, Hitler was a Catholic and had the support of the Vatican in eliminating the Jews. More precisely, the Vatican had a platform of non-involvement; though that's not to say they didn't like the idea.
You can argue what communism is and it will not matter because I can argue what religion is and it will not matter. Just like us not living in a true democracy, it does not prevent us from calling our society a democracy.
By the way, that is not what I meant. Communism is destructive to religion and it cannot be dismissed. Systematically shutting down temples and mosques, forcing people to not follow their faith, and limiting the amount of people who practice/preach seems to me like a "War against Religion."
You make a point about Stalin being a fascist dictator. If a madman decides to wield the "Sword of Allah", how can you claim it was a strictly religious act and not a political one? After all, a politician can influence his people to do what he wants; what more so of one under the guise of piety? What kind of war would it be? There is nothing religious about such a war.
23 Apr 2008, 6:17 pm
this is sorta like the poll i made only with out the rant and blatant discrimination (that no one seemed to notice 
)
i voted for found my own god.
23 Apr 2008, 6:24 pm
26 Apr 2008, 1:32 am
26 Apr 2008, 1:52 am
Joelsuf wrote:
Fred2670 wrote:
The time has come to embrace your Mormanism
Doesnt make you a bad person
Face it you aint gettin a planet
Those arent for skeptics
but you might land a bride
retrace your footsteps and find the Lord
dont lay on your death bed all stressed out
because you doubted the truth
find it
walk out into the woods and pray about it
look into the heavens
The light that shines is the mothership
Doesnt make you a bad person
Face it you aint gettin a planet
Those arent for skeptics
but you might land a bride
retrace your footsteps and find the Lord
dont lay on your death bed all stressed out
because you doubted the truth
find it
walk out into the woods and pray about it
look into the heavens
The light that shines is the mothership
YOU IDIOT! You religion was made by someone who had been diagnosed with SCHIZOPHRENIA! That AND he had previous convictions for FRAUD!
far out, you'd think most people would see that it was BS when they were told about the "golden book" that was locked away and no-one was allowed to see it, let alone the part that says "FEED ME %20 OF EVERYTHING YOU OWN!! !"
26 Apr 2008, 1:56 am
26 Apr 2008, 2:43 am
26 Apr 2008, 5:31 pm
27 Apr 2008, 1:10 pm
27 Apr 2008, 2:14 pm
Joelsuf wrote:
I constantly ask my religious friends to give me an honest and intelligent reason why you should pick a religion, or why theirs is true.
Compare above statement with this one:
Joelsuf wrote:
Religion causes wars. Religion says war is ok. Religion used to condemn people of different skin tone and cause racial bashings. Religion condemns homosexual people and causes gay bashings. Religion makes you cough up money (through collection plates, selling of merchandise like bibles, games, movies and books, or through their requirements of being a part of that religion such as scientology where you have to give up 50% of your pay check or mormonism where you have to give them 20% of EVERYTHING you own).
You want reason for religion,but then you negatively label religion (in general),and in a sense you already demonstrated that you don't want any reason for religion,and that your question from above is purely rhetorical.
"Give me honest and intelligent reason for religion,so that I can deny that this reason is honest and intelligent" is most likely rationale for above statement(I believe).
Legato wrote:
First of all, there has not been a true Communist society on the face of the planet that has lasted more than a couple weeks.
That only depends on your personal definition of Communism.
Self professed Communist societies lasted for decades,and some (like North Korea) still exist today.
Legato wrote:
I assume by "communism" you mean the Soviet Union and Stalin's rule?
Communism as official state ideology starts with Vladimir Lenin,not Stalin.
Legato wrote:
If so, Stalin did not declare war against anyone, it was Hitler that declared war on Stalin, violating their pact.
Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War
this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_ord ... nd_in_1939
and this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khalkhin_Gol
Legato wrote:
It is true that Stalin did kill many of his own people in purges, but this had nothing to do with religion, it was because Stalin was a FASCIST DICTATOR!
Off course not....
Mao was also a 'Fascist dictator',this has nothing to do with religion:
http://www.tibet.com/whitepaper/white7.html
Quote:
The Chinese Government pronounced:
The Chinese Communist Party considers that its ideology and that of religion are two forces that cannot co-exist and occupy the same spot at the same time. ... the differences between the two (ie, science and religion) can be likened to those between light and darkness, between truth and falsehood. There is absolutely no possibility to reconcile the mutually-opposed world views of science and religion.
This Communist Chinese view was all-pervasive. In Mao Zedong's own words, "... but of course, religion is poison. It has two great defects: It undermines the race ...(and) ret*ds the progress of the country. Tibet and Mongolia have both been poisoned by it."
By the middle of the 1950s, the Chinese authorities realised that religion was the principal obstacle to their control of Tibet. Therefore, from the beginning of 1956, a so-called "Democratic Reform" was carried out, first in Kham and Amdo, and later (in 1959) in Central Tibet. Monasteries, temples, and cultural centres were systematically looted of all articles of value and then dismantled.
The Chinese Communist Party considers that its ideology and that of religion are two forces that cannot co-exist and occupy the same spot at the same time. ... the differences between the two (ie, science and religion) can be likened to those between light and darkness, between truth and falsehood. There is absolutely no possibility to reconcile the mutually-opposed world views of science and religion.
This Communist Chinese view was all-pervasive. In Mao Zedong's own words, "... but of course, religion is poison. It has two great defects: It undermines the race ...(and) ret*ds the progress of the country. Tibet and Mongolia have both been poisoned by it."
By the middle of the 1950s, the Chinese authorities realised that religion was the principal obstacle to their control of Tibet. Therefore, from the beginning of 1956, a so-called "Democratic Reform" was carried out, first in Kham and Amdo, and later (in 1959) in Central Tibet. Monasteries, temples, and cultural centres were systematically looted of all articles of value and then dismantled.
As a matter of fact,Mao's statements are almost identical with statements of many 'new atheists' on this forum.
As for Soviet Union:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecutio ... viet_Union
Quote:
Between 1917 and 1940, 130,000 Orthodox priests were arrested. In 1918, the Cheka under Felix Dzerzhinsky executed over 3000 Orthodox clergymen of all ranks. Some were drowned in ice-holes or poured over with cold water in winter until they turned to ice-pillars. In 1922, the Solovki Camp of Special Purpose, the first Russian concentration camp was established in the Solovki Islands in the White Sea [1]. Eight metropolitans, twenty archbishops, and forty-seven bishops of the Orthodox Church died there, along with tens of thousands of the laity. Of these, 95,000 were put to death, executed by firing squad.[citation needed] Father Pavel Florensky was one of the New-martyrs of this particular period.
Quote:
Anti-religious propaganda was openly sponsored and encouraged by the government, which the Church was not given an opportunity to publicly respond to. The government youth organization, the Komsomol, encouraged its members to vandalize Orthodox Churches and harass worshippers. Seminaries were closed down, and the church was restricted from using the press.
Quote:
Throughout the 1920s and 1930s the celebration of Christmas and the traditional Russian holiday of New Year (Feast of the Circumcision of Christ) was prohibited (later on New Year was reinstated as a secular holiday and is now the most significant family holiday in Russia).
All this,off course have nothing to do with religion....
Legato wrote:
Note: In a true Communist Democracy, there are obviously no dictators.
Note:In a true Christian society,there is obviously no violence.
Legato wrote:
The supposed "communism" that existed was warped from Marx's and Lenin's teachings.
There is also a "Christian communism":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism
But violent,oppressive Communism known to most of us was inspired by something else...
As Lenin once said:
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/autho ... lenin.html
Quote:
Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.
Vladimir Lenin
Vladimir Lenin
Legato wrote:
Edit: Before anyone makes the ignorant comment about Hitler being atheist, Hitler was a Catholic and had the support of the Vatican in eliminating the Jews.
Hitler was baptized as Catholic,in same manner that Joseph Stalin was baptized as Orthodox,or Richard Dawkins was baptized as Anglican.
I believe that Hitlers 'religion' was closer to Wicca then to traditional Christianity.
Here is about Hitler:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitl ... us_beliefs
Quote:
Joseph Goebbels, for example, notes in a diary entry in 1939: "The Führer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay." Albert Speer reports a similar statement: "You see, it’s been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn’t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"
Quote:
In the beginning Hitler was opposed to state atheism, which for example was part of the political system of the Soviet Union, but he nevertheless desired a religiously neutral state system, at least during the years of his dictatorship.[35] He feared the political power that the churches had, and did not want to openly antagonize that political base until he had securely gained control of the country. Once in power Hitler showed his contempt for religion and sought to eliminate it from areas under his rule.
Quote:
Within Hitler's Nazi Party some atheists were quite vocal especially Baldur von Schirach, Arthur Axmann and Martin Bormann.
Legato wrote:
More precisely, the Vatican had a platform of non-involvement; though that's not to say they didn't like the idea.
Sweden had platform of non-involvement...though that's not to say they didn't like the idea...
28 Apr 2008, 3:35 am
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