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Feyokien
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11 Oct 2015, 11:13 pm

Do you think Columbus Day should continue to be recognized as a national holiday? Discuss

Here's a link that shares an easy history of the day and the man if you don't know anything besides 1492
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day
And if you don't like web comics here's this
http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2013/10/14/8-myths-and-atrocities-about-christopher-columbus-and-columbus-day-151653
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-kasum/columbus-day-a-bad-idea_b_742708.html



LoveNotHate
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11 Oct 2015, 11:30 pm

Columbus is a hero.

Now American heros drop bombs and shoot missiles.

In Iraq, Iraqi death count estimate is 151,000 to 1 million people killed from American forces.

Columbus was actually a light weight when it came to slaughtering people for the good of America, but importantly, he paved the way for European settlement.



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12 Oct 2015, 1:28 am

The only reason why Columbus is an American national hero today is because the founding fathers, in their zeal to cut their ties with Britain, looked for a hero of Non-British background, and they found him in Columbus. The truth is, even if Columbus had never made his voyage to the New World, as that was the Age of Exploration, someone else would have made the discovery in the same era. Maybe, who ever that intrepid seaman of an alternate history might have been, might have been bright enough to realize he hadn't landed in India. Columbus was hardly a great man, or even a particularly smart one, he had acted very badly regarding the natives of the New World (slavery, genocide), and as he had been trying to circumnavigate the globe to reach China to cash in on trade deals, he was motivated entirely by greed. My daughter doesn't even get the day off like I used to as a kid. I say, put the greedy old bastard away, as we Americans have a plethora of national heroes to choose from today.


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12 Oct 2015, 12:13 pm

It should be replaced with Ponce De Leon Day, Columbus didn't do anything in the states. Most of his exploration was in South America and the Carribean.



0_equals_true
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12 Oct 2015, 1:00 pm

Columbus never went to North America, it is a bit like St George never went to England.



naturalplastic
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12 Oct 2015, 6:11 pm

If it mattered to you to have an "alternative" to Columbus then I would go with Giovanni Cabotti ( aka "John Cabot") who reached North America circa 1497 (before Ponce De Leon).

Like Columbus he was a northern Italian who went around europe pedaling the crazy idea of getting to the East by sailing west to Monarchs. He was finally hired by King Henry the Seventh of England. He sailed from Bristol and sailed around the northern edge of the north Atlantic (in contrast to Columbus who sailed straight across the middle of the Atlantic) and discovered "New Found Land" ( Newfoundland, Canada). He may, or may not, have also reached parts of what is now the east coast of the U.S.A..



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12 Oct 2015, 8:49 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
If it mattered to you to have an "alternative" to Columbus then I would go with Giovanni Cabotti ( aka "John Cabot") who reached North America circa 1497 (before Ponce De Leon).

Like Columbus he was a northern Italian who went around europe pedaling the crazy idea of getting to the East by sailing west to Monarchs. He was finally hired by King Henry the Seventh of England. He sailed from Bristol and sailed around the northern edge of the north Atlantic (in contrast to Columbus who sailed straight across the middle of the Atlantic) and discovered "New Found Land" ( Newfoundland, Canada). He may, or may not, have also reached parts of what is now the east coast of the U.S.A..


Okay, I'm all for changing Columbus Day to John Cabot Day!
Incidentally, despite the traditional claims that Columbus was Italian, there is convincing DNA evidence taken from his descendants that he was actually a Spaniard.


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naturalplastic
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12 Oct 2015, 9:01 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
If it mattered to you to have an "alternative" to Columbus then I would go with Giovanni Cabotti ( aka "John Cabot") who reached North America circa 1497 (before Ponce De Leon).

Like Columbus he was a northern Italian who went around europe pedaling the crazy idea of getting to the East by sailing west to Monarchs. He was finally hired by King Henry the Seventh of England. He sailed from Bristol and sailed around the northern edge of the north Atlantic (in contrast to Columbus who sailed straight across the middle of the Atlantic) and discovered "New Found Land" ( Newfoundland, Canada). He may, or may not, have also reached parts of what is now the east coast of the U.S.A..


Okay, I'm all for changing Columbus Day to John Cabot Day!
Incidentally, despite the traditional claims that Columbus was Italian, there is convincing DNA evidence taken from his descendants that he was actually a Spaniard.


Interesting.There was a convincingTV documentary in the 90's that postulated that Columbus stole the identity of a Genovese sailor who died in a sea battle, and that he was really a noble from the kingdom of Aragon (which had only recently united with Castile to form the then new country of Spain). So he was actually from the eastern slice of what is now Spain. He supposedly couldnt read nor write in Italian, but could in Iberian languages. Kinda like the "Shakespeare wasnt Shakespeare" theories, but a little more convincing than those IMHO.



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12 Oct 2015, 9:20 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
If it mattered to you to have an "alternative" to Columbus then I would go with Giovanni Cabotti ( aka "John Cabot") who reached North America circa 1497 (before Ponce De Leon).

Like Columbus he was a northern Italian who went around europe pedaling the crazy idea of getting to the East by sailing west to Monarchs. He was finally hired by King Henry the Seventh of England. He sailed from Bristol and sailed around the northern edge of the north Atlantic (in contrast to Columbus who sailed straight across the middle of the Atlantic) and discovered "New Found Land" ( Newfoundland, Canada). He may, or may not, have also reached parts of what is now the east coast of the U.S.A..


Okay, I'm all for changing Columbus Day to John Cabot Day!
Incidentally, despite the traditional claims that Columbus was Italian, there is convincing DNA evidence taken from his descendants that he was actually a Spaniard.


Interesting.There was a convincingTV documentary in the 90's that postulated that Columbus stole the identity of a Genovese sailor who died in a sea battle, and that he was really a noble from the kingdom of Aragon (which had only recently united with Castile to form the then new country of Spain). So he was actually from the eastern slice of what is now Spain. He supposedly couldnt read nor write in Italian, but could in Iberian languages. Kinda like the "Shakespeare wasnt Shakespeare" theories, but a little more convincing than those IMHO.


Don't get me started on that "Shakespeare really wasn't Shakespeare" crap, or we'll really get off topic. :lol:


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12 Oct 2015, 10:45 pm

The Oatmeal is the opposite of an honest, objective source. Columbus's flaws were those of his time, and to judge a 15th century person by modern standards is the height of absurdity.

He was an extraordinarily courageous man, who risked everything in pursuit of his dream. While he didn't find what he was looking for, because he was mistaken about the size of the earth, he did manage to make the single most momentous discovery in Western history. His discoveries sparked the Age of Exploration. Over the previous century, the Portuguese had gradually felt their way around Africa; in the decades after Colombus came de Gama and Balboa and Magellan. The eventual result was the spreading of Western values, not only to the Americas, but all over the world …

To honor a person is not to whitewash his flaws, or pretend that he was some kind of saint. Yes, I think Columbus deserves to be remembered, not reviled.


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13 Oct 2015, 1:52 am

luan78zao wrote:
The Oatmeal is the opposite of an honest, objective source. Columbus's flaws were those of his time, and to judge a 15th century person by modern standards is the height of absurdity.

He was an extraordinarily courageous man, who risked everything in pursuit of his dream. While he didn't find what he was looking for, because he was mistaken about the size of the earth, he did manage to make the single most momentous discovery in Western history. His discoveries sparked the Age of Exploration. Over the previous century, the Portuguese had gradually felt their way around Africa; in the decades after Colombus came de Gama and Balboa and Magellan. The eventual result was the spreading of Western values, not only to the Americas, but all over the world …

To honor a person is not to whitewash his flaws, or pretend that he was some kind of saint. Yes, I think Columbus deserves to be remembered, not reviled.


The time was right for seafaring exploration. Someone else would have done it, especially since it was the Spanish monarchy that had wanted to expand for the chance at economic gain, and thus there would have been someone else to fill that role.


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13 Oct 2015, 2:02 am

I'm for throwing out all the "Monday hollidays" in the US. Way too many three-day weekends for the underworked and overpaid yuppie trash. Middle classers like myself have never got those days off.
Also, as I'm Navajo on one side of the family and Italian on the other, I'm quite sick of all the C.Day clashes in my area.


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13 Oct 2015, 3:56 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
luan78zao wrote:
The Oatmeal is the opposite of an honest, objective source. Columbus's flaws were those of his time, and to judge a 15th century person by modern standards is the height of absurdity.

He was an extraordinarily courageous man, who risked everything in pursuit of his dream. While he didn't find what he was looking for, because he was mistaken about the size of the earth, he did manage to make the single most momentous discovery in Western history. His discoveries sparked the Age of Exploration. Over the previous century, the Portuguese had gradually felt their way around Africa; in the decades after Colombus came de Gama and Balboa and Magellan. The eventual result was the spreading of Western values, not only to the Americas, but all over the world …

To honor a person is not to whitewash his flaws, or pretend that he was some kind of saint. Yes, I think Columbus deserves to be remembered, not reviled.


The time was right for seafaring exploration. Someone else would have done it, especially since it was the Spanish monarchy that had wanted to expand for the chance at economic gain, and thus there would have been someone else to fill that role.



Leif Erickson discovered the new world before Columbus, but he failed to secure the land for his people.

Columbus got the job done.



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13 Oct 2015, 1:19 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
luan78zao wrote:
The Oatmeal is the opposite of an honest, objective source. Columbus's flaws were those of his time, and to judge a 15th century person by modern standards is the height of absurdity.

He was an extraordinarily courageous man, who risked everything in pursuit of his dream. While he didn't find what he was looking for, because he was mistaken about the size of the earth, he did manage to make the single most momentous discovery in Western history. His discoveries sparked the Age of Exploration. Over the previous century, the Portuguese had gradually felt their way around Africa; in the decades after Colombus came de Gama and Balboa and Magellan. The eventual result was the spreading of Western values, not only to the Americas, but all over the world …

To honor a person is not to whitewash his flaws, or pretend that he was some kind of saint. Yes, I think Columbus deserves to be remembered, not reviled.


The time was right for seafaring exploration. Someone else would have done it, especially since it was the Spanish monarchy that had wanted to expand for the chance at economic gain, and thus there would have been someone else to fill that role.



Leif Erickson discovered the new world before Columbus, but he failed to secure the land for his people.

Columbus got the job done.


I'll give Columbus credit for being the first of many coming to the New World. My point is, had he never lived, someone else would have eventually done it, as the time was right. It's like when Martin Luther had described how the Reformation would have started with someone else, even if he had never been born, simply because he understood how dynamic the era he - and Columbus - lived in was. It was an age after the long period of cultural darkness, when there was a sudden explosion in the arts, in theology, and in the need to explore the outer world.


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13 Oct 2015, 2:22 pm

I tend to put opposition to Columbus Day in the same category that I do all attempts to judge historical figures by contemporary moral standards; pointless ego stroking by people trying to signal how "enlightened" they are.


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13 Oct 2015, 3:48 pm

This state's pretty much kicked Columbus Day out the door and replaced it with Indigenous Peoples Day.