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snake321
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21 May 2008, 5:44 am

Sand wrote:
The propaganda of religion is that without the subjugation to a totalitarian superbeing humans would regress to vicious brutality. The brutalities daily committed by super religious fanatics easily demonstrates the falsehood of this. There is a basic social decency in most humans and for religion to claim that as originating only in religion is one of its major lies.


Spot on Sand, couldn't have said it better myself.



snake321
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21 May 2008, 5:46 am

xyzyxx wrote:
snake321 wrote:
Ok, this can be for people of any monotheist religion, be it christianity, islam, judaism, w/e. So, you believe there is a humble, all powerful, all loving god..... Yet, god requires mere human beings (who are no doubt like ants compared to him), mere humans, to bow and worship him... That doesn't sound like a very humble act in my opinion.
Sounds more like subjugation, which is more or less slavery. For god to require us to bow to him or worship him would be very very egotistical, would it not? Plus it's like this, imagine I could somehow communicate with bugs, and I demanded them to worship me. What's the point?
without reading the rest of the thread, let me answer this question myself based on what I know/what I have learned in my church.

First of all, God is not humble. He is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. He is more powerful than any other being in the universe. And he knows this. There is nothing humble about that.

Second of all, God does not require anyone to worship him. He does not punish anyone for not believing in Him. Because He loves us, He allows us free will to believe in Him or not.


Ok, if your arguing semantics. But for people who do believe in your god, they aren't allowed free will of thought. They claim (as you claim here) "god loves me", but "god" is very much a dictator here.



oscuria
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21 May 2008, 6:01 am

snake321 wrote:

Ok, if your arguing semantics. But for people who do believe in your god, they aren't allowed free will of thought. They claim (as you claim here) "god loves me", but "god" is very much a dictator here.



His very title and commandment entrusts Him as such. He is Love to those who Love Him, to those He has given Mercy to.

The rest are those who rebel against Him and will find no Mercy. It is a very simple concept. He is Benevolent to those who Love Him, and a Tyrant to those whom He have not Graced.


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phil777
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21 May 2008, 9:31 am

I fancy myself to be humanitarian as well, but i will still say that some of moral values that the church teaches can be the basics to building a better world (love is all you need right?)



slowmutant
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21 May 2008, 9:31 am

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I'm a Humanist, which means i believe in Humanity, human potential, and human dignity. I don't need fairy tales.


Nor do we.



Ragtime
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21 May 2008, 9:43 am

Sand wrote:
It is the basic nature of religion to confer on its adherents the sense of possession of absolute truth and this is one of its most dangerous qualities for it gives religious people the license to commit frightful horrors on people who would doubt or defy those convictions.


Religion also gives people an absolutely inviolable sense that they must do good for others,
and that, such as life is, we must often self-sacrifice in order to do so.
Focusing on high ideals like the will of a loving, all-powerful God causes one to love others,
and impresses upon one the fact that this necessity to show love is given by God, not by one's own
undependable, ever-changing emotional states. Therefore, to love one another is thought of by
Christians as an absolute command given by Jesus Himself. So, we can't
say, "Ah, I'm not in the mood to care about someone, or do anything good for
anyone, so I can just be selfish until I feel differently."

So, religion can give one a much more powerful and more focused sense of true goodness than atheism does.


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Ragtime
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21 May 2008, 9:56 am

greenblue wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
Quote:
Of course, Atheism is the LACK of belief, but that doesn't mean Atheists are nihilists, there are plenty of non-religious philosophies like Humanism.


With only the absence of something to believe in, how can atheists be anything other than nihilistic?


Atheism does put one well within arm's reach of nihilistic thoughts.

ok, denying the existence in God, does not conform to all the requirements to follow nihilism philosophy and being considered nihilist, as you have said, you have read the Quran to criticize muslims, so I believe reading about nihilism would do some fairness.


I said "nihilistic thoughts", not a formal, displined study of Nihilism.
The point is that atheism offers no grand purpose to the universe to focus on;
if the atheist wants such a grand purpose, he must try and inject one into it. ...Which, since it came from him to begin with,
is likely to be doubted by him during his times of depression. But God's principles are always true,
no matter how depressed or hopeless we temporarily become. He put the meaning into the universe,
so we don't have to try and take it upon ourselves to do so while throwing our own human errors and biases into the mix.


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Ragtime
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21 May 2008, 10:03 am

Odin wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
Quote:
Of course, Atheism is the LACK of belief, but that doesn't mean Atheists are nihilists, there are plenty of non-religious philosophies like Humanism.


With only the absence of something to believe in, how can atheists be anything other than nihilistic?


Atheism does put one well within arm's reach of nihilistic thoughts.


No it doesn't.


Atheism being conflated with Nihilism is the result of subtle but pernicious dualistic assumptions permeating Western thought that leads the physical world to be degraded as being "mere" matter. Even many non-religious people still carry around these unquestioned assumptions. Atheism can only lead to nihilism if one still has these baseless dualistic assumptions in your mind.


Where from my quote "Atheism does put one well within arm's reach of nihilistic thoughts" do you get
"Atheism = formal Nihilism"?
You're reading into my words your own biased interpretation, and then claiming your interpretation is what I said.
"Arm's reach" means it is very easily accessible to your present position,
not that it is one and the same as your position.
:roll:
Distinctions, people, distinctions. Think them out, please.


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Ragtime
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21 May 2008, 10:08 am

xyzyxx wrote:
snake321 wrote:
Ok, this can be for people of any monotheist religion, be it christianity, islam, judaism, w/e. So, you believe there is a humble, all powerful, all loving god..... Yet, god requires mere human beings (who are no doubt like ants compared to him), mere humans, to bow and worship him... That doesn't sound like a very humble act in my opinion.
Sounds more like subjugation, which is more or less slavery. For god to require us to bow to him or worship him would be very very egotistical, would it not? Plus it's like this, imagine I could somehow communicate with bugs, and I demanded them to worship me. What's the point?
without reading the rest of the thread, let me answer this question myself based on what I know/what I have learned in my church.

First of all, God is not humble. He is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. He is more powerful than any other being in the universe. And he knows this. There is nothing humble about that.


No, it's just sane.
If you truly are the best, which God is, then knowing so merely means you grasp reality.


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Ragtime
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21 May 2008, 10:11 am

Sand wrote:
Fantastic! You know the mind of God.
The psychologist Szasz pointed out that many people speak to God but when they hear him answer it is usually a sign of schizophrenia.


It's somewhat cute that Szasz uttered something he couldn't possibly know. :)


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Ragtime
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21 May 2008, 10:19 am

oscuria wrote:
snake321 wrote:

Ok, if your arguing semantics. But for people who do believe in your god, they aren't allowed free will of thought. They claim (as you claim here) "god loves me", but "god" is very much a dictator here.



His very title and commandment entrusts Him as such. He is Love to those who Love Him, to those He has given Mercy to.

The rest are those who rebel against Him and will find no Mercy. It is a very simple concept. He is Benevolent to those who Love Him, and a Tyrant to those whom He have not Graced.


I can agree with this, but I do also believe God loves everyone, even while He gets angry at some.
One of my Biblically-derived logical maxims is: "To love goodness, you have to also hate evil." (Amos 5:15)
To be okay with both good and evil equally would not be loving good.
God is shown by Scripture to hate evil -- He absolutely hates it, with no apology -- but He loves all of his children,
even when they bastardize themselves by becoming the children of Satan instead of God.
Jesus: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." (John 8:44)

"And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." (Hebrews 12:5-8)

(To "chasten" in King James English means to discipline.)


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Odin
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21 May 2008, 2:52 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Sand wrote:
It is the basic nature of religion to confer on its adherents the sense of possession of absolute truth and this is one of its most dangerous qualities for it gives religious people the license to commit frightful horrors on people who would doubt or defy those convictions.


Religion also gives people an absolutely inviolable sense that they must do good for others,
and that, such as life is, we must often self-sacrifice in order to do so.
Focusing on high ideals like the will of a loving, all-powerful God causes one to love others,
and impresses upon one the fact that this necessity to show love is given by God, not by one's own
undependable, ever-changing emotional states. Therefore, to love one another is thought of by
Christians as an absolute command given by Jesus Himself. So, we can't
say, "Ah, I'm not in the mood to care about someone, or do anything good for
anyone, so I can just be selfish until I feel differently."

So, religion can give one a much more powerful and more focused sense of true goodness than atheism does.


My non-religious supernatural beliefs are just as powerful and focused when it come to being a good person as the religious people claims their beliefs are.


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Odin
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21 May 2008, 2:56 pm

Ragtime wrote:
greenblue wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
Quote:
Of course, Atheism is the LACK of belief, but that doesn't mean Atheists are nihilists, there are plenty of non-religious philosophies like Humanism.


With only the absence of something to believe in, how can atheists be anything other than nihilistic?


Atheism does put one well within arm's reach of nihilistic thoughts.

ok, denying the existence in God, does not conform to all the requirements to follow nihilism philosophy and being considered nihilist, as you have said, you have read the Quran to criticize muslims, so I believe reading about nihilism would do some fairness.


I said "nihilistic thoughts", not a formal, displined study of Nihilism.
The point is that atheism offers no grand purpose to the universe to focus on;
if the atheist wants such a grand purpose, he must try and inject one into it. ...Which, since it came from him to begin with,
is likely to be doubted by him during his times of depression. But God's principles are always true,
no matter how depressed or hopeless we temporarily become. He put the meaning into the universe,
so we don't have to try and take it upon ourselves to do so while throwing our own human errors and biases into the mix.


I prefer to create my own meaning in a meaningless universe. I consider the notion that there is some meaning or ultimate purpose "out there" depressingly restrictive and anti-humanistic because it means that our lives are just part of some divine cosmic plan, cogs in a machine.


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iamnotaparakeet
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21 May 2008, 3:21 pm

Odin wrote:
I prefer to create my own meaning in a meaningless universe. I consider the notion that there is some meaning or ultimate purpose "out there" depressingly restrictive and anti-humanistic because it means that our lives are just part of some divine cosmic plan, cogs in a machine.


That assumes it is meaningless. No one can argue with you? Are you more open than this paragraph indicates? Deciding a case a priori just means rejection of evidence that doesn't fit the model. Pennies and dice, a priori works (if you limit your conditions sufficiently.) But even a penny can land on its edge.



Ragtime
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21 May 2008, 3:28 pm

Odin wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Sand wrote:
It is the basic nature of religion to confer on its adherents the sense of possession of absolute truth and this is one of its most dangerous qualities for it gives religious people the license to commit frightful horrors on people who would doubt or defy those convictions.


Religion also gives people an absolutely inviolable sense that they must do good for others,
and that, such as life is, we must often self-sacrifice in order to do so.
Focusing on high ideals like the will of a loving, all-powerful God causes one to love others,
and impresses upon one the fact that this necessity to show love is given by God, not by one's own
undependable, ever-changing emotional states. Therefore, to love one another is thought of by
Christians as an absolute command given by Jesus Himself. So, we can't
say, "Ah, I'm not in the mood to care about someone, or do anything good for
anyone, so I can just be selfish until I feel differently."

So, religion can give one a much more powerful and more focused sense of true goodness than atheism does.


My non-religious supernatural beliefs are just as powerful and focused when it come to being a good person as the religious people claims their beliefs are.


How would you differentiate your "non-religious supernatural beliefs" from religion?


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Ragtime
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21 May 2008, 3:30 pm

Odin wrote:
I prefer to create my own meaning in a meaningless universe.


I thought you said:

Odin wrote:
I don't need fairy tales.


:?:

Which is it?


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