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How do you feel about the subject of UFO's and Aliens??
Earth is the only planet in the universe that supports life. 3%  3%  [ 2 ]
I believe that there is probably life out in the universe, but UFO's and alien abductions are false. 53%  53%  [ 37 ]
I believe that there is life out in the universe and that UFO's and alien sightings are real. 33%  33%  [ 23 ]
I'm not sure. 11%  11%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 70

Birdgirl
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23 Jul 2008, 10:50 pm

TimT wrote:
There are aliens on this planet. They are spiritual beings, able to change form at will. They live for centuries. They gain power by milking soul power from humans. In animist cultures, they bribe the humans to give them soul power by offering to look after them. Later, they get the upper hand and extort soul power from the humans at the threat of harm if they don't.

These aliens have formed religions around themselves, to establish a continual supply of soul power from the worship of their human peons. There are people who go in league with them, to get special favors or powers from them. These are witch doctors, shamans, psychics, witches, monks, holy men, sorcerers, santeras, etc.

Christianity is vastly different than all these so-called religions. We have authority to cast out or dis-empower these aliens and they know it. They have to submit. We can drive the aliens out of the earth, air, fire, water, the nether regions, portals, ley lines, animals, humans, idols, charmed objects, etc.


Exactly.

But.... Isn't Christianity just another one of the religions that the aliens [anunnaki from the draco galaxy] have formed around themselves? That's what I think, based on past research and reading.. Of course I have no proof, but still. Just wondering why you think Christianity is different.


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23 Jul 2008, 10:59 pm

I can destroy a spaceship full of aliens due to my tantrik powers.

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23 Jul 2008, 11:53 pm

Fnord wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
Based on what you've said in this thread, I am very cynical that ANY evidence, no matter how solid or scientifically valid will convince you because if such evidence that Alien Spaceships have reached earth you will try to come up with some seemingly plausible explanation precluding anything extraterrestrial. Perhaps just the mere possibility of extraterrestrial life, and particularly extraterrestrial spacecraft does not fit your worldview. This is the troube with many self-professed "skeptics", they dont take the time to carefully analyze and review evidence NOR can they be bothered to investigate something for themselves.
You're more of a cynic than a skeptic when it comes to this issue and the fact is that extraterrestrial life, extraterrestrial intelligence, and extraterrestrial spacetravel fits PERFECTLY within the laws of science as we understand them now!

The possibility of extraterrestrial life is part of my view of the universe. Space travel is possible, but considering that it would take over four-hundred years to get to Earth from Alpha Centauri (27,629,539,253,962.967 miles away) at even 1% the speed of light (670,616,629.4 miles per hour x 1% = 6,706,166.294 mph), and that even the fastest man-made "spaceship" - the Ulysses probe - travelling at 27.4 miles per second (98,640 miles per hour), would take nearly 30,000 years to make the trip! It seems unlikely that anyone would survive such a trip. (Please check my math ... I would hate to be in error.)

If an extraterrestrial were to introduce himself to me, I might ask for proof of his extraordinary claim if he appeared to be an ordinary human being. If he (it?) looked somewhat non-human, but still human-like (a body, four appendages, and a head), then I would look for evidence of "Hollywood" make-up and prosthetics. If it looked completely non-human, I might observe it for signs of robotic behavior (remotely-controlled). I have been hoaxed before, and have participated in a few hoaxes myself; I have worked as a movie and TV production assistant in and around Hollywood; and I hold a Bachelor's Degree in Electrical Engineering, so I know what to look for. So, for example, it takes more than a blurry photo, a half-arsed account, and a few superficial scratches to convince me that someone was "abducted by space aliens."

I am skeptical that extraterrestrials have visited Earth. I am also cynical of any claims that they have. Of course, if the person making the extraordinary claim that "extraterrestrial aliens have visited Earth" also provides irrefutable evidence to support this claim, then I would have to change my opinions, now wouldn't I?

Until then, I will continue to challenge any such claimant to provide the irrefutable evidence needed to support their extraordinary claim. This evidence would have to be more than hearsay, urban legend, conspiracy theory, mis-interpretation of mathematical and scientific principles, mis-representation of natural phenomena, and a purely subjective interpretation of history and myth. I'm looking for material proof - an alien artifact, alien knowledge, or the aliens themselves!

It's just that simple: Be prepared to provide extraordinary evidence for your extraordinary claims -- extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, after all -- and leave both faith and fallacy to the religionists.





I agree with you that Extraodinary Claims require Extraordinary evidence, However I remain unconvinced that the Ulysses probe is the best we can do in terms of speed. Furthermore, I also cannot help but call into question the certainty of special relativity and the light barrier-in terms of not having seen physical proof of such. But even if it is correct, what Relativity tells is is NOT that its entirely impossible to travel faster than light, but that its impossible to cross the light barrier BY BRUTE FORCE. But I dispute the notion that claims that some UFOs may be (autonomous)Robot Probes from extraterrestrial civilizations rather than spacecraft piloted by actual Aliens themselves. Do you disagree with me on that in particular? I will say that I am NOT a believer in Alien abductions or in the presence of Aliens among us. Also, photographic evidence and eyewitness accounts are certainly not strong enough evidence to rule out terrestrial origins-in fact they do not provide proof that an actual object was even there. But if eyewitness accounts are confirmed by Radar than that shows that what was seen was an actual object.
So yes, the stories in this thread certainly dont prove anything. But I look at UFO incidents on a case-by-case basis before trying to come to ANY conclusions. About the Belgian Flap of 1990 its pretty clear that Something was in the skies that night over Europe and the extraterrestrial hypothesis has yet to be ruled out.....



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24 Jul 2008, 12:48 am

Haliphron wrote:
agree with you that Extraodinary Claims require Extraordinary evidence, However I remain unconvinced that the Ulysses probe is the best we can do in terms of speed.

Probably true, but still, interstellar distances are vast. The amount of energy needed to accelerate a spacecraft to a significant fraction of the speed of light is simply enormous. However, concepts have been drawn up by NASA for potentially plausible interstellar probes with technological knowledge not much above our own (unlike some other similar probe plans); I was just reading about one from the late 80s known as Project Longshot which would use nuclear pulse propulsion for a travel time to Alpha Centauri in only 100 years. Also I think I read somewhere that it would be plausible to set up some kind of light sail driven by ground based lasers or something like that which they claimed could be used to get the craft up to .1c, but I don't remember where I read that. Anywho, we're still dealing with a very long time to traverse interstellar distances under technology which isn't complete BS.

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Furthermore, I also cannot help but call into question the certainty of special relativity and the light barrier-in terms of not having seen physical proof of such.

Relativity is right, and FTL is a pipe dream. Granted, we haven't demonstrated the physical impossibility of worm holes, but they aren't looking too good and they wouldn't be much of a travel plan anywho.


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24 Jul 2008, 3:11 am

twoshots wrote:

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Furthermore, I also cannot help but call into question the certainty of special relativity and the light barrier-in terms of not having seen physical proof of such.


Relativity is right, and FTL is a pipe dream. Granted, we haven't demonstrated the physical impossibility of worm holes, but they aren't looking too good and they wouldn't be much of a travel plan anywho.


:lol:

WHAT experimental proof is there that nothing can travel faster than light?
Experimental quantum optics is getting closer and closer to sending information faster than light.Your assertion that FTL is a pipedream is BS. Quantum Tunneling DOES allow infinite potential barriers to be penetrated. Im not talking about "wormholes", Im talking about exploiting General Relativity by amplifying gravitational waves to bend spacetime in a localized region. I find your understanding of modern physics to be somewhat shaky, though you vociferously extoll your perspication. :



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24 Jul 2008, 9:56 am

Birdgirl wrote:
Isn't Christianity just another one of the religions that the aliens [anunnaki from the draco galaxy] have formed around themselves? That's what I think, based on past research and reading.. Of course I have no proof, but still. Just wondering why you think Christianity is different.
The aliens have the same religious understanding I have -- that they must submit to the authority of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. I have used this conferred authority to send these aliens packing quite frequently. I personally can't oppose them; I have to have the conferred authority.

However, if a Christian church doesn't understand & exercise their authority, yes, the aliens can take it over and use it for their ends.



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24 Jul 2008, 10:19 am

Believe it or...topic

I suppose a person can believe in anything, evidence notwithstanding. But I am skeptical of irrefutable evidence that aliens have landed or UFOs have entered our world. I will wait for substantiations form SETI before I get all excited about extraterrestrial life. :wink:


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24 Jul 2008, 11:14 am

sartresue wrote:
Believe it or...topic

I suppose a person can believe in anything, evidence notwithstanding. But I am skeptical of irrefutable evidence that aliens have landed or UFOs have entered our world. I will wait for substantiations form SETI before I get all excited about extraterrestrial life. :wink:


Cant comment on the Belgian Triangle incident of 1990? NO ETs were spotted and there was no communication with the Object but its dubious that Aerospace technology of the time was advanced enough to build a vehicle with such manuverability. Nonetheless, if you're waiting for SETI you could be waiting a LOooooooong time my friend :wink: . Space is vast, radiowaves are pretty slow AND dont forget the dispersion factor of radio signals as the travel through outer space.



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24 Jul 2008, 11:22 am

TimT wrote:
It's not that easy to diss me.

This is a Non Sequitor fallacy. I'm not trying to disrespect you. but if you believe that calling for you to prove your assertions is disrespect, then that is your problem, not mine.

TimT wrote:
I was once a scientific materialist like you.

You've used the Fallacies of Digression, Non-Sequitor, and Straw Man in one statement. Actually, I'm a Presbyterian.

TimT wrote:
Irrefutable evidence is impossible when it comes to historical events.

You've now expressed the Fallacy of Special Pleading. Is there no Declaration of Independance in the National Archives? Does Lindberg's plane not hang in the Smithsonian? Who is buried in Grant's tomb?

TimT wrote:
The Legal/Historical method is used in those cases, not the scientific method. That requires the creating of a hypothesis and seeing if it best fits the evidence.

No, this is part of the Scientific Method. You've expressed a Half-Truth Fallacy by leaving out the rest of the method, which includes actually testing the hypothesis and peer-group review of the results. You don't stop at the hypothesis just because you've cherry-picked a few unrelated facts to support it. You have to actually demonstrate that your hypothesis is worthy of even being called a Theory.

TimT wrote:
Faith is required.

You've committed the Fallacy of Appeal to Faith. if you rely on faith as the basis of your argument, then we can gain little from further discussion. Faith, by definition, relies on a belief that does not rest on logic or evidence, and is the antithesis of the scientific method - reliance on faith has kept more people ignorant, and prodiced more crackpot theories than all any public school administrator could ever hope for. Faith depends on irrational thought and produces intransigence. Faith proves nothing. Faith in an almighty sky-fairy does not prove that such a being exists. Faith in invisible dragons does not prove their existance. Faith in the Illuminati does not prove their existance.

TimT wrote:
The jury can all be accused of lying.

You've made the Fallacy of Suppressed Evidence. Anyone can be accused of lying, but a mere accusation does not prove guilt, nor does it imply a conviction.

TimT wrote:
The prosecution and defense can be accused of collusion against the plaintiff.

Fallacy of Suppressed Evidence again. Accusations are not proof, they are merely assertions or claims. Without irrefutable evidence of collusion, there can be no mistrial or acquital, regardless in one's faith in the alleged validity of the claim.

TimT wrote:
The deep space astronomers could all be lying. The nuclear physicists could be backing the wrong hypothesis.

More Suppressed Evidence Fallacies. If you believe these implications, then the burden is upon you to provide the evidence.

TimT wrote:
I mean, give me irrefutable proof your father was not a closet gay.

How very cute ... an "Ad Hominem" attack, an "Argumentum Ex Silentio" fallacy, and an "Argumentum Ad Ignorantiam" fallacy all in one statement. You should run for public office.

TimT wrote:
The best evidence is statistical inference, if you can get it. The more incidents you use to make up your statistics, the more confidence you can have in the results. Confidence means "have faith in."

"Confidence" in this context means "the quality or state of being certain" (syn. "certitude"). You have thus committed the fallacy of Equivocation by implying that "Certainty" and the "Belief in things unprovable" are the same thing, thus rendering your assertion null and void. And why would anyone want to make up their statistics, anyway? That's a sleezy way to propagate a belief.

TimT wrote:
If this has not changed your mind as to what evidence is acceptable, then I have no more to say to you.

It takes much more than a collection of misleading statements and fallacious assertions to convince me of anything.

As I said before, you should run for public office ... or maybe start a multi-level marketing scheme ... you could be a success in either case.

But since you are not saying anything more to me, then I guess I'll just have to be rude and refute your faith-based assertions without being asked.

Neener. Neener. Neener.


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24 Jul 2008, 11:34 am

TimT wrote:
The aliens ...

What aliens? You have not yet proven their existance. Until you've done so, any statements regarding thier abilities is null and void.

TimT wrote:
The aliens have the same religious understanding I have -- that they must submit to the authority of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. I have used this conferred authority to send these aliens packing quite frequently. I personally can't oppose them; I have to have the conferred authority.


You can either oppose these alleged beings, or you can't. "Sending them back" is opposition. Denying that opposition implies collusion in their departure.

Just whose side are you on, anyway?

TimT wrote:
However, if a Christian church doesn't understand & exercise their authority, yes, the aliens can take it over and use it for their ends.

This statement is rendered null and void by your failure to prove the existance of thes "Aliens" you speak of.

Evidence, Please?


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24 Jul 2008, 12:02 pm

Birdgirl wrote:
... Isn't Christianity just another one of the religions that the aliens [anunnaki from the draco galaxy] have formed around themselves? That's what I think, based on past research and reading.. Of course I have no proof, but still. Just wondering why you think Christianity is different.

The Annunaki myth of the ancient Babylonians has recently been grafted onto the present-day Nibiru myth, which states that the Anunnaki of Nibiru are coming back to Earth soon. Planet X (or Nibiru) is going to pass by Earth, in May or June of 2003, on its 3,600 year orbit around our sun, causing earthquakes, tidal waves, severe flooding, food shortages due to climatic conditions, diseases, meteor fire storms, volcanic eruptions and the like resulting in a great catastrophic infliction of loss of life on Earth.

Well, May and June of 2003 have come and gone over 5 years ago, and there was no sighting of "Planet X" at the time, nor did any natural disasters occur during that time or since then with any greater frequency. Some might say that "Global Warming" is caused by "Planet X", but this has been going on since the end of the most recent ice age.

Some people will believe anything. :?


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24 Jul 2008, 1:09 pm

skafather84 wrote:
oscuria wrote:
history_of_psychiatry wrote:
That sounds to me like Ball Lightning.


Image


that was my first thought too.


/used to run a crappy direct damage deck


Ball lightining in itself is a rare phenomenon only recently deemed true by the scientific community.


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24 Jul 2008, 9:47 pm

Haliphron wrote:
twoshots wrote:

Quote:
Furthermore, I also cannot help but call into question the certainty of special relativity and the light barrier-in terms of not having seen physical proof of such.


Relativity is right, and FTL is a pipe dream. Granted, we haven't demonstrated the physical impossibility of worm holes, but they aren't looking too good and they wouldn't be much of a travel plan anywho.


:lol:

:lmao: Glad we shared that little experience.

Quote:
WHAT experimental proof is there that nothing can travel faster than light?

Well, I think this sentence slightly confuses the way epistemology works in science (i.e. your implying that we prove a universal, but this is not the way things work in, say, a falsificationist approach to science) but I assume you mean something better than that...

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Experimental quantum optics is getting closer and closer to sending information faster than light.Your assertion that FTL is a pipedream is BS.

Citation? Even if you could send information, you'd still have a ways to go before you could send an object.

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Im not talking about "wormholes", Im talking about exploiting General Relativity by amplifying gravitational waves to bend spacetime in a localized region.

Again, citation? I figured you weren't talking about wormholes, but the proposals for FTL travel I've heard of are even worse, it is my impression.

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I find your understanding of modern physics to be somewhat shaky,

Quite likely, given that I studied little more physics than it took to satisfy the requirements for my math degree, but I am aware that the prevailing theories on the matter are not favorable to the idea of FTL; claims to the contrary are still not well grounded and therefore constitute bad argument premises. FTL travel still stands as the hope of a theoretical possibility.

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though you vociferously extoll your perspication. :

I have done no such extolation of perspicacitousness.


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24 Jul 2008, 9:57 pm

I believe that aliens may be out there somewhere. As for UFOs and alien abductions, I'm not sure.


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24 Jul 2008, 10:19 pm

twoshots:
As far as Relativity is concerned, surely you realize we are NOT talking about philosophy here were are talking about Science which requires Experimental verification on a theory before it can be accepted as fact :!: Are you familiar with the mathematics of Special and General Relativity? Such as the Lorentz Transformation and the Einstein Filed Equations??
Modern Astrophysics has made observations which are consistent with General Relativity: such as Gravitational Lenses and Black Holes. A good example of the former is the (so-called) Eintstein Cross. But speaking of FTL and information here are some interesting links: http://wc0.worldcrossing.com/[email protected]@.1de13e11/4. If an object is traveling at superluminal velocity the Lorentz Factor becomes a complex number with a non-zero real part. What that suggests is that the velocity of light is an asymptotic barrier-essentially an infinite potential barrier.



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24 Jul 2008, 10:28 pm

Haliphron wrote:
twoshots:
As far as Relativity is concerned, surely you realize we are NOT talking about philosophy here were are talking about Science which requires Experimental verification on a theory before it can be accepted as fact

Science involves philosophy(scientific foundations began in philosophy, ya know), but his point is valid, you cannot empirically verify a universal within science. What experiment can prove that nothing can ever do something? Only an experiment that tested all things, and well, that is impossible especially given that it is unlikely we will ever know all things.