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qaliqo
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29 Jul 2008, 1:36 pm

First thought on reading this article is that God is just, because the mother will die just like everyone else, her beliefs with her. So reading down through various takes on this, I came across

To all those who ragged on her for being a despicable bigot, and in the same breath condemned her for her religion -- try taking the plank out of your own eye first, before offering to help someone with the speck in their eye. Be careful not to be a bigot yourself.

Second thought: Hardly a speck, is it? Having removed the plank, it is obvious that hating unrepentant bigots for being bigots is very different from hating someone based on gender, race, religion, nationality, or sexual orientation. Just minds hate bigotry, and by extension hold accountable those that spread it to others. Were a leader to come to power that would round up and execute all the bigots, regardless of flavor, my support would end with my life. There is no room in a global civilization for schism along biological lines.


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29 Jul 2008, 2:21 pm

ed wrote:
I think Christians have forgotten who it is that they worship.

No, they have not forgotten ... most worship their religions, rather than their God.


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29 Jul 2008, 3:09 pm

Malsane wrote:
This article made the fury rise in me. [sarcasm]How large of her to consider gays human![/sarcasm] This is one of the reasons I really dislike Christianity. It causes so much hate, sadness, and pain. There is no good reason for such harm to occur. So many gays die from hate crimes and suicide because of bigotry.


I unfortunately have to agree, much to the dismay of straight Christians here. I was raised a strict Catholic, and let me tell you, they HATE gays, I know what I'm talking about, I'm still dealing with how much crap I took from being gay in a Christian setting. After I came out, my mother didn't speak to me for over two years and forbade me to ever enter in a church again, because, as she said, the rules are the rules, "Though shalt not lie with another man", so I was basically dead to her for a long time, and my father hasn't spoken to me in years, he's an Italian Catholic, and can't even look at me in the eye. This astonishing lack of tolerance and active hatred towards their only son is absolutely fueled by their religion. Even our priest told me there was no room for me anymore in church, for fear I might lead other boys astray (!). I still remember his exact words: "Michel, you're a very good looking boy, and you might lead other boys into temptation". Do you know how horrible that makes a sensitive and impressionable sixteen year old feel, completely rejected by all who previously seemed to love you and that you trusted? Lonely, depressed, confused, full of shame and guilt for something that's completely out of my control, something that I was born with and can't change? Might as well hate me and throw me out because my eyes are brown. What, are they afraid they'll catch gay by being near me?

So yeah, don't talk to me about how wonderful Christianity is and how loving Christians are.

"We spread love as long as you are one of us and follow our rigid rules" seems to be the motto for Christians. Of course, of course if you're straight and even better if you're family oriented, Christianity will embrace you and you'll be led to believe how wonderful and loving it is, how it is a necessity in your life, how it helps mankind, how it will absolutely fill all the voids in your empty life and make you happy and how it will ultimately save your soul and direct you to Heaven.

What a big bag of bul$&*#t.

I've grown since then. Now, even when someone says to me "I accept you even though you're gay", I'm like "F#&k you, either you like me completely, or take a hike". There's absolutely no room for subtle or hidden bigotry in my life. Sorry if this offends Christians, I'm sure you're nice law abiding people, but this is my experience and I relate to the article in many ways.



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29 Jul 2008, 3:45 pm

michel wrote:
After I came out, my mother didn't speak to me for over two years and forbade me to ever enter in a church again, because, as she said, the rules are the rules, "Though shalt not lie with another man", so I was basically dead to her for a long time, and my father hasn't spoken to me in years, he's an Italian Catholic, and can't even look at me in the eye. This astonishing lack of tolerance and active hatred towards their only son is absolutely fueled by their religion. Even our priest told me there was no room for me anymore in church, for fear I might lead other boys astray (!). I still remember his exact words: "Michel, you're a very good looking boy, and you might lead other boys into temptation".

8O

I'm sorry, but I'm compelled to ask ... why don't your parents just hold a freekin funeral for their dead dreams and just get on with life?

A that priest ... a Catholic priest ... a Roman Freekin Catholic priest told you that you don't fit in with a church whose leader not only committed, but condoned coerced sex acts by priests on underaged boys and girls ... peodophilia, it's called ... and I'll bet he did it with all the sincerity of any man who is as assured of his own self-righteousness as he is of his salvation and utter lack of hypocrisy.

At least he called you good-looking.


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Last edited by Fnord on 29 Jul 2008, 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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29 Jul 2008, 4:00 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Well, no, it is found in both the New and the Old Testament. So, this characterization of it only being Leviticus is false, and a mischaracterization by those who dislike Christian opposition to homosexuality.

well, I believe that some are very aware of that being also stated in the NT just as women position in both NT and OT as well, being that part of the chacterization of Paul as mysoginist.

I think, in my opinion, that christians, in general, would be more tolerant with homosexuality, if that wasn't stated by our friend Paul in the NT, now that most of the stuff from the OT they see it as outdated, after Christ, with few exceptions it seems.

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Both of these are in the found in the ESV if one doubts the translation I am using. Now, we can argue that Christianity is wrong, but considering homosexuality to be immoral is much more established than laws on cloth, or a number of the other things that people try to draw as equivalent to homosexuality found in Leviticus.

English Standard Version:
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality". 1 Corinthians 6:9.

King James Version:
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind". 1 Corinthians 6:9.


It's funny to read the word "homosexuality" or "homosexual" in the Bible, considering the word did not exist at the time the Bible (OT and NT) was written, not until the 19th century, and they didn't even care of defining it other than it was sinful and aborrent.


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29 Jul 2008, 4:21 pm

King James Version:
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind". 1 Corinthians 6:9.


Be not deceived: neither saying it, nor writing it, nor having billions believe it will make it any more or less true. All falsity leads away from God, and all truth leads to God. Homosexuals are in truth attracted to those of their own gender, and not the opposite gender; those who claim homosexuality is against God are in essence saying that the attraction is not true, ergo it leads one away from God to believe that God does not want homosexuals to act. Rape and child molestation, on the other hand, are not based in attraction but in a false need to control and dominate, almost always accompanied by threats or intimidation.

Nothing is sin, all is sacred.


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29 Jul 2008, 4:59 pm

michel wrote:
Malsane wrote:
This article made the fury rise in me. [sarcasm]How large of her to consider gays human![/sarcasm] This is one of the reasons I really dislike Christianity. It causes so much hate, sadness, and pain. There is no good reason for such harm to occur. So many gays die from hate crimes and suicide because of bigotry.


I unfortunately have to agree, much to the dismay of straight Christians here. I was raised a strict Catholic, and let me tell you, they HATE gays, I know what I'm talking about, I'm still dealing with how much crap I took from being gay in a Christian setting. After I came out, my mother didn't speak to me for over two years and forbade me to ever enter in a church again, because, as she said, the rules are the rules, "Though shalt not lie with another man", so I was basically dead to her for a long time, and my father hasn't spoken to me in years, he's an Italian Catholic, and can't even look at me in the eye. This astonishing lack of tolerance and active hatred towards their only son is absolutely fueled by their religion. Even our priest told me there was no room for me anymore in church, for fear I might lead other boys astray (!). I still remember his exact words: "Michel, you're a very good looking boy, and you might lead other boys into temptation". Do you know how horrible that makes a sensitive and impressionable sixteen year old feel, completely rejected by all who previously seemed to love you and that you trusted? Lonely, depressed, confused, full of shame and guilt for something that's completely out of my control, something that I was born with and can't change? Might as well hate me and throw me out because my eyes are brown. What, are they afraid they'll catch gay by being near me?

So yeah, don't talk to me about how wonderful Christianity is and how loving Christians are.

"We spread love as long as you are one of us and follow our rigid rules" seems to be the motto for Christians. Of course, of course if you're straight and even better if you're family oriented, Christianity will embrace you and you'll be led to believe how wonderful and loving it is, how it is a necessity in your life, how it helps mankind, how it will absolutely fill all the voids in your empty life and make you happy and how it will ultimately save your soul and direct you to Heaven.

What a big bag of bul$&*#t.

I've grown since then. Now, even when someone says to me "I accept you even though you're gay", I'm like "F#&k you, either you like me completely, or take a hike". There's absolutely no room for subtle or hidden bigotry in my life. Sorry if this offends Christians, I'm sure you're nice law abiding people, but this is my experience and I relate to the article in many ways.


what your complaining about is something called society. In every society there are norms whether or not those norms seem fair they serve some purpose. And in every society those norms are enforced. be grateful you dont live in a country where they hang people for homosexual activity.

I myself have experience ostrascivism and unfair treatment for a variety of things many wich i cant change and couldnt help. but i dont go around getting pissed over people who dont get me.



ed
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29 Jul 2008, 5:05 pm

qaliqo wrote:
King James Version:
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind". 1 Corinthians 6:9.


Didn't you know? Quoting Paul is pretty much like quoting Jerry Falwell. :lol:


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29 Jul 2008, 5:08 pm

Malsane wrote:
This article made the fury rise in me. [sarcasm]How large of her to consider gays human![/sarcasm] This is one of the reasons I really dislike Christianity. It causes so much hate, sadness, and pain. There is no good reason for such harm to occur. So many gays die from hate crimes and suicide because of bigotry.
However wrong she may have been, you have to remember that she DID make progress. And that the progress she did make was caused by the same Christianity you blame.

michel wrote:
I unfortunately have to agree, much to the dismay of straight Christians here. I was raised a strict Catholic, and let me tell you, they HATE gays, I know what I'm talking about, I'm still dealing with how much crap I took from being gay in a Christian setting. After I came out, my mother didn't speak to me for over two years and forbade me to ever enter in a church again, because, as she said, the rules are the rules, "Though shalt not lie with another man", so I was basically dead to her for a long time, and my father hasn't spoken to me in years, he's an Italian Catholic, and can't even look at me in the eye. This astonishing lack of tolerance and active hatred towards their only son is absolutely fueled by their religion. Even our priest told me there was no room for me anymore in church, for fear I might lead other boys astray (!). I still remember his exact words: "Michel, you're a very good looking boy, and you might lead other boys into temptation". Do you know how horrible that makes a sensitive and impressionable sixteen year old feel, completely rejected by all who previously seemed to love you and that you trusted? Lonely, depressed, confused, full of shame and guilt for something that's completely out of my control, something that I was born with and can't change? Might as well hate me and throw me out because my eyes are brown. What, are they afraid they'll catch gay by being near me?

So yeah, don't talk to me about how wonderful Christianity is and how loving Christians are.

"We spread love as long as you are one of us and follow our rigid rules" seems to be the motto for Christians. Of course, of course if you're straight and even better if you're family oriented, Christianity will embrace you and you'll be led to believe how wonderful and loving it is, how it is a necessity in your life, how it helps mankind, how it will absolutely fill all the voids in your empty life and make you happy and how it will ultimately save your soul and direct you to Heaven.

What a big bag of bul$&*#t.

I've grown since then. Now, even when someone says to me "I accept you even though you're gay", I'm like "F#&k you, either you like me completely, or take a hike". There's absolutely no room for subtle or hidden bigotry in my life. Sorry if this offends Christians, I'm sure you're nice law abiding people, but this is my experience and I relate to the article in many ways.
I'm sorry you got handed a bag of [email protected]#%t. But that doesn't justify dumping it on others.

Your analogy w/ brown eyes is very apt. But don't hate me because my eyes are green, no matter what some other green-eye may have done to you.

And don't you *dare* let someone's inability to follow their own religion make you insult anyone else who shares that religion. So you think strict Catholics are prejudiced. But when you insulted all Christians, did you consider the liberal or even middle-of-the-road Catholics? What about the other 2 major branches of Christianity that aren't Catholic?


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29 Jul 2008, 5:10 pm

As a person who wasn't raised in a religious household, it amazes me the level of bigotry and stupidity that some otherwise good people really possess. Its like, you would never suspect them to think that way unless the subject came up.



ed
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29 Jul 2008, 5:13 pm

...love your avatar, CRACK... :lol:


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29 Jul 2008, 5:38 pm

greenblue wrote:
well, I believe that some are very aware of that being also stated in the NT just as women position in both NT and OT as well, being that part of the chacterization of Paul as mysoginist.

Right, and those people usually are not Christians, and well, why the heck would non-Christians give Christian teaching a lot of moral weight? They wouldn't.

Quote:
I think, in my opinion, that christians, in general, would be more tolerant with homosexuality, if that wasn't stated by our friend Paul in the NT, now that most of the stuff from the OT they see it as outdated, after Christ, with few exceptions it seems.

Probably as there would be a greater disconnect, however, Paul is seen as a disciple of Christ, and therefore his words often carry the weight of any of the other disciples.

Quote:
English Standard Version:
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality". 1 Corinthians 6:9.

King James Version:
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind". 1 Corinthians 6:9.

It's funny to read the word "homosexuality" or "homosexual" in the Bible, considering the word did not exist at the time the Bible (OT and NT) was written, not until the 19th century, and they didn't even care of defining it other than it was sinful and aborrent.

Right, well, I think that "abusers of themselves with mankind" is simply a longer term for "homosexual", simply because the same different wording is found in the KJV in 1 Timothy on the same topic, where homosexuality is used instead by modern translations.



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29 Jul 2008, 5:46 pm

michel wrote:
Malsane wrote:
This article made the fury rise in me. [sarcasm]How large of her to consider gays human![/sarcasm] This is one of the reasons I really dislike Christianity. It causes so much hate, sadness, and pain. There is no good reason for such harm to occur. So many gays die from hate crimes and suicide because of bigotry.


I unfortunately have to agree, much to the dismay of straight Christians here. I was raised a strict Catholic, and let me tell you, they HATE gays, I know what I'm talking about, I'm still dealing with how much crap I took from being gay in a Christian setting. After I came out, my mother didn't speak to me for over two years and forbade me to ever enter in a church again, because, as she said, the rules are the rules, "Though shalt not lie with another man", so I was basically dead to her for a long time, and my father hasn't spoken to me in years, he's an Italian Catholic, and can't even look at me in the eye. This astonishing lack of tolerance and active hatred towards their only son is absolutely fueled by their religion. Even our priest told me there was no room for me anymore in church, for fear I might lead other boys astray (!). I still remember his exact words: "Michel, you're a very good looking boy, and you might lead other boys into temptation". Do you know how horrible that makes a sensitive and impressionable sixteen year old feel, completely rejected by all who previously seemed to love you and that you trusted? Lonely, depressed, confused, full of shame and guilt for something that's completely out of my control, something that I was born with and can't change? Might as well hate me and throw me out because my eyes are brown. What, are they afraid they'll catch gay by being near me?

So yeah, don't talk to me about how wonderful Christianity is and how loving Christians are.

"We spread love as long as you are one of us and follow our rigid rules" seems to be the motto for Christians. Of course, of course if you're straight and even better if you're family oriented, Christianity will embrace you and you'll be led to believe how wonderful and loving it is, how it is a necessity in your life, how it helps mankind, how it will absolutely fill all the voids in your empty life and make you happy and how it will ultimately save your soul and direct you to Heaven.

What a big bag of bul$&*#t.

I've grown since then. Now, even when someone says to me "I accept you even though you're gay", I'm like "F#&k you, either you like me completely, or take a hike". There's absolutely no room for subtle or hidden bigotry in my life. Sorry if this offends Christians, I'm sure you're nice law abiding people, but this is my experience and I relate to the article in many ways.


how dare you slander the church just for it having teachings you dont agree with and actually has people who try to adhere to them just because your feelings were hurt.



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29 Jul 2008, 5:46 pm

qaliqo wrote:
Quote:
To all those who ragged on her for being a despicable bigot, and in the same breath condemned her for her religion -- try taking the plank out of your own eye first, before offering to help someone with the speck in their eye. Be careful not to be a bigot yourself.


Second thought: Hardly a speck, is it? Having removed the plank, it is obvious that hating unrepentant bigots for being bigots is very different from hating someone based on gender, race, religion, nationality, or sexual orientation. Just minds hate bigotry, and by extension hold accountable those that spread it to others. Were a leader to come to power that would round up and execute all the bigots, regardless of flavor, my support would end with my life. There is no room in a global civilization for schism along biological lines.
You want someone to round up all the bigots and shoot them? Who gets to decide the definition of bigotry then? If it's me, you'd better be careful -- I'd probably say that anyone who wants to line up bigots and shoot them is a bigot. :twisted:

The speck/plank analogy was a deliberate reference to a saying of Jesus, not an objective appraisal of the severity of the fault in either party.

You didn't read the article, did you? She didn't actually hate anybody. Even if she had -- ever hear of the phrase "Love the sinner, hate the sin." IMHO, that's much better than "Round up all the sinners and shoot them."

To clarify, in case anyone else missed what I was trying to say: Those of you who are saying "don't be prejudiced and/or hate gay people just for being gay, because prejudice and hate are bad" should not then go on to display prejudice and/or hate for Christians just because they are Christian.


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29 Jul 2008, 6:08 pm

Ancalagon wrote:
To clarify, in case anyone else missed what I was trying to say: Those of you who are saying "don't be prejudiced and/or hate gay people just for being gay, because prejudice and hate are bad" should not then go on to display prejudice and/or hate for Christians just because they are Christian.

Is it alright for me to still hate braised liver and brussel sprouts?


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purpose of diplomacy is to prolong a crisis.”

— Leonard Nimoy as Mr. Spock, in the Star Trek
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