Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

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ruveyn
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26 Jun 2013, 3:18 pm

slowmutant wrote:
What are you advocating?

Sorry, but that was far too much for me to read.


He is advocating we go back to living in caves and be covered with sh*t.

ruveyn



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26 Jun 2013, 9:12 pm

City people returning to rural life could only survive as roving bands of cannibals.

The main complaint here seems to be too many people, with which I agree, and the Earth would be a great place with less than a half billion. The plan of how to get there is where people disagree.

The history of all cities is they became depopulated and abandoned. With the fall of Rome came the vanishing of Romans. The water system worked, the sewers ran, there was farm land, just no people were left.

This too is nature, following a cycle.

Before that there were waves of ice, and nothing survived. Geologic events also affect population.

We are blowing a population bubble, jast as the past did, and it will pop, just as all before have.

The OP seems to want to preserve the bubble, which goes against the natural order of things.



sushil_yadav
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27 Jun 2013, 12:11 am

ruveyn wrote:

He is advocating we go back to living in caves and be covered with sh*t.

ruveyn


It is you who is advocating this.

I never suggested this.

sushil_yadav wrote:

A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because Industrialization has increased world population to 7 billion.......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been less than 2 billion today.

If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.

At present we are destroying environment for Food, Clothing, Shelter plus Thousands of Industrial consumer goods and services.

We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated.

We are approaching Environmental Apocalypse.......The only way to save the remaining environment is by stopping Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services immediately........Industrial Activity must be primarily limited to food, clothing and shelter.......and even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.
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The whole society needs to be reorganized...Urban Dwellers have to be relocated in Rural Areas....Urban Dwellers have to either transform into full time food producers or they have to stop working in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work....They can be given food for free in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work.

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sushil_yadav
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27 Jun 2013, 4:05 am

Inventor wrote:

The main complaint here seems to be too many people, with which I agree, and the Earth would be a great place with less than a half billion.

We are blowing a population bubble,


The problem is consumerism.

Increase in population has been wrongly associated with overbreeding and vilified as the cause of environmental destruction.

Overpopulation is a consequence of industrialization not overbreeding.....The entire world was overbreeding before industrialization, The entire world is underbreeding after industrialization.....There used to be 5 - 15 children per family before industrialization, Most families are now having 1 - 4 children.

World population jumped from 1 billion in the year 1800 to 7 billion in just 200 years after industrialization.

So if anything is to be blamed for overpopulation it is industrialization.

Overpoppulation and Overconsumerism are consequences/ by-products of Industrialization.

In the absence of Industrialization there would be no overpopulation and no overconsumerism.

Secondly, It is not population that has destroyed environment.... This planet can sustain many times the present level of human population if we limit our activity to food, clothing and shelter and stop destroying environment for thousands of Industrial Consumer Goods.

The total requirement of food for millions of species (including man) has not increased on earth, because increase in requirement of food for man has coincided with decrease in requirement of food for millions of other species that have been decimated by man.....The forests that used to provide food to millions of other species before they got decimated are now agricultural land providing food to man.

If half of the world population is undernourished today it is not because of shortage of food but because the other half of world population is overnourished and has become obese due to overeating.

30 - 40% of packaged food in Industrial Society is thrown away.

Vegetarian food can feed a far bigger human population than non vegetarian food.

Billions of tonnes of Food Grains and Billions of acres of Grazing Land is being used to feed billions of cattle which are then slaughtered in Industrial Slaughter Houses to then feed billions of people, half of whom have become obese due to overeating.......If the same food grains and land were used to directly provide vegetarian food to people then a far bigger human population(than the present one) can be sustained.

The entire world has been making efforts to control population for the last 50 years....In the absence of these efforts world population would have been much greater than what it is now.....So there is no problem with population at all.

Industrialization led to overpopulation and overconsumerism....Industrial Society has been trying to control population while increasing consumerism exponentially....This is height of insanity.

If Urban Society stops its supplies to Rural Society it will live for ever.

If Rural Society stops its supplies to Urban Society it will die within a month.

That is the worth of consumer goods in this world.

Environment has been destroyed by consumerism not population.

The combined population of other species (whose size and weight) were equivalent to or greater than man was much greater than the present human population.....Yet they destroyed very little environment because they destroyed environment only for food , not for thousands of industrial consumer goods and services.

The total burden of population has not increased on earth........Increase in human population has coincided with decrease/ decimation of millions of other species.

It is the burden of lifestyle that has increased on earth.....Millions of other species destroy environment only for food, Man is destroying environment for food, clothing, shelter plus thousands of consumer goods and services.


The cause of environmental destruction is consumerism not population.

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neilson_wheels
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27 Jun 2013, 5:15 am

Have you ever studied the concept of Ecology?



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27 Jun 2013, 2:22 pm

The problem is Public Health, where counting those that died young, and of old age at 45, even a high birth rate could not keep up rapid population growth.

The last hundred years has seen childhood deaths drop, and people living almost twice as long.

Most of the animals we replaced were grass eaters, and we cannot, so we raise cattle and sheep.

Industry is needed to produce the grains, transport and store them, and worldwide, more food is wasted by spoiling or being eaten by rats.

Grain comes from oil, steel, and chemical plants. Going organic woould reduce production by half, and doing the labor with oxen by over 90%.

Also, like Rome, we are burning up the soil and the water cycle, and that will reduce production.

To support seven billion we burn the candle at both ends.

Of course you are using a computer and the internet, and with sattlites our farming can be watched. We ride the Technology Tiger, there is no way to dismount.



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27 Jun 2013, 2:34 pm

@Sushil: Aside from three posts in "Getting to Know Each Other", all of your posts are in this thread. Don't you have any other interests?


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27 Jun 2013, 2:35 pm

sushil_yadav wrote:
Inventor wrote:

The main complaint here seems to be too many people, with which I agree, and the Earth would be a great place with less than a half billion.

We are blowing a population bubble,


The problem is consumerism.

Increase in population has been wrongly associated with overbreeding and vilified as the cause of environmental destruction.

Overpopulation is a consequence of industrialization not overbreeding.....The entire world was overbreeding before industrialization, The entire world is underbreeding after industrialization.....There used to be 5 - 15 children per family before industrialization, Most families are now having 1 - 4 children.

World population jumped from 1 billion in the year 1800 to 7 billion in just 200 years after industrialization.

So if anything is to be blamed for overpopulation it is industrialization.

Overpoppulation and Overconsumerism are consequences/ by-products of Industrialization.

In the absence of Industrialization there would be no overpopulation and no overconsumerism.


It is the burden of lifestyle that has increased on earth.....Millions of other species destroy environment only for food, Man is destroying environment for food, clothing, shelter plus thousands of consumer goods and services.[/b]

The cause of environmental destruction is consumerism not population.


A couple of points. I agree with much of what you say btw.

Firstly, it is not "industrialisation" that has caused our massive population explosion, not as such. Rather, it is advances in areas like medicine and sanitation. Population growth is modelled by the equation (Births-Deaths)+Net Migration. Net migration is not applicable if we talk as a planet. Our "problem" is that we have made it much harder to die. That's actually a great thing, of course. The birth rate has come down, but it has not come down enough, largely because it remains high in much of the developing world.

Overconsumerism is only an issue because of our population. If we had a world population of 250,000, they could essentially have as much as they wanted. The problem is when total demand (something like average demand*population) becomes too high. IMO we should try and tackle both issues. If we solely focused on consumerism, then quality of life would be low. If we solely focused on population, then we'd have to be quite authoritarian.



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27 Jun 2013, 7:16 pm

He is right that the population growth is due to a decrease in death rates, and not mainly to an increase in births. But were still 'breeding to excess' anyway.

And industrialization cause each person to consume more per capita. So fewer people can be a greater threat to environment.

So apparently he wants us to do away with modern plumbing and sewerage systems so we can all start dying of cholera again. And that will reverse population increase!

So...Mr YS... why dont you set an example and have yourself voluntarily injected with cholera- and die in agony on UTube?

That way we will all be convinced by your example. And we will immediately follow your example, and procede to tear up our sewer systems and go back to the middle ages- and happily die in droves of the plague and cholera!



sushil_yadav
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28 Jun 2013, 11:34 pm

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This planet is home to millions of species not just man alone.

Millions of other species destroy environment primarily for food.

Human species is the only lunatic species which has destroyed environment for thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

It is crystal clear that the cause of environmental destruction is consumerism.

Population doesn't destroy environment....The combined population of other species is(was) much greater than current human population, yet they did not destroy environment for millions of years whereas Industrial Society has destroyed most of the biodiversity and ecosystems in just 250 years after Industrial Revolution.

Production of thousands of consumer goods has to be stopped.

Millions of other species have already been decimated by Industrial Activity.....If man doesn't stop Industrial Activity for production of thousands of consumer goods then he is going to get decimated/ wiped out very soon.

For 250 years (since Industrial Revolution) Urban Population of this world has fooled Non Urban Population about the importance of Urban Work.

For 250 years (since Industrial Revolution) Urban Population of this world has fooled Non Urban Population with Theories and Terminologies......Progress, Growth, Development.....Growth Rate, Economy rate, GDP.

Urban Work is unnecessary, destructive and worthless.

Urban Jobs are unnecessary, destructive and worthless.

If Urban Society stops its supplies to Rural Society it will live forever.

If Rural Society stops its supplies to Urban Society it will die within a month.

That is the worth of Urban Work, Consumer Goods, Progress, Growth and Development in this world.

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Last edited by sushil_yadav on 28 Jun 2013, 11:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

sushil_yadav
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28 Jun 2013, 11:47 pm

Fnord wrote:
@Sushil: Aside from three posts in "Getting to Know Each Other", all of your posts are in this thread. Don't you have any other interests?


My interests are .....saving environment, study of mind, silence, solitude, meditation.

I have written only one article in my life...."Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment".

This article is a summary of all that I have learned in my life.

Whenever I make an addition to the article, I try to post it in the threads I have posted in various forums.
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ruveyn
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29 Jun 2013, 3:46 am

sushil_yadav wrote:
Fnord wrote:
@Sushil: Aside from three posts in "Getting to Know Each Other", all of your posts are in this thread. Don't you have any other interests?


My interests are .....saving environment, study of mind, silence, solitude, meditation.

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Which is complete nonsense, by the way. And why are you using a computer, the product of soul destroying technology. Do you realize that what it takes to generate the electricity you are using is destroying the world.

Aside from nonsense, you are not even consistent. Shame on you!

ruveyn



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29 Jun 2013, 3:48 am

It may be a revelation to you but other people think like you do, some even actually try to do something about it.

I would raise points in your argument where you are completely wrong but I can tell by the style of your writing that would be totally pointless.



sushil_yadav
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29 Jun 2013, 9:06 am

ruveyn wrote:
sushil_yadav wrote:
Fnord wrote:
@Sushil: Aside from three posts in "Getting to Know Each Other", all of your posts are in this thread. Don't you have any other interests?


My interests are .....saving environment, study of mind, silence, solitude, meditation.

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Which is complete nonsense, by the way. And why are you using a computer, the product of soul destroying technology. Do you realize that what it takes to generate the electricity you are using is destroying the world.

Aside from nonsense, you are not even consistent. Shame on you!

ruveyn


What a brilliant comment from a veteran of 30,000 posts!! !

I never claimed that I am not a part of society that is destroying environment.

The title of my article says "Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment" and since I am a citizen of Industrial Society I get included automatically.

Computers are being used today because they are being manufactured by Industrial Society.

Was anyone using computers in Hunter_Gatherer Society / Agrarian Society when they were not being manufactured?????

There are billions of people in this world who are not using computers.....Has that saved the environment?????.....It hasn't, because billions of other people are using computers and thousands of other consumer goods and services.

Citizens of Industrial Society need to be told that their lifestyle is destroying environment....Since these people use computers they have to be contacted through computers....They cannot be contacted through Pigeon Mail.

Moreover, if Industrial Society had not come into existence, large scale destruction of environment would not have taken place and there would have been no need to spread the message about saving environment through computers.

Environment doesn't get saved if a few people live a simple life.....It doesn't get saved if a few thousand people live a simple life......It doesn't get saved if a few million people live a simple life.....It doesn't get saved even if a few billion people live a simple life [which is happening right now.....Out of 7 billion people roughly half, about 3.5 billion are already living a simple life in Asia, Africa and South America .......but this doesn't save the environment......because the rest 3.5 billion people all over the world are living a highly consumerist life which is enough to destroy all ecosystems.

The entire world has to live a simple life. In animal kingdom all animals lived a simple life.....In Hunter_Gatherer Society all people lived a simple life......In Agrarian Society almost all people lived a simple life.

In a non-industrial society simple living happens automatically....one does not have to make efforts to live a simple life. In a non-industrial society environment gets saved automatically....one does not have to make efforts to save environment.

An Industrial Society produces thousands of consumer goods in addition to food, clothing and shelter.....therefore simple living by entire society is impossible.

There is no industrial society which limits its activity to just food, clothing, shelter and which does not produce consumer goods.

If we compare the scale and magnitude of environmental destruction of the three human societies we have had on earth we will find :

Hunter_Gatherer society was least destructive/ hardly caused any destruction......Agrarian Society was thousands of times more destructive.......Industrial Society is millions of times more destructive.

Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth....The biggest act of killing, murder and terrorism on earth.
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29 Jun 2013, 9:43 am

Most citizens of the Industrial society do not care what happens to the environment. Many do not even appreciate any form of nature, land only has a value once it has been modified to produce for human consumption.

The half of the world that currently lives a simple life aspire to be like the other half. Key to this desire is the acquisition of the consumer goods that make life easier.

If you believe that the whole of the world population can become agrarian then you are mistaken. The Earth will continue to be here whether humans, either, find technology to overcome the burden on the planet or die off, possibly taking most higher life forms with us. In the first example bioengineering will be at the forefront. Regarding the second point life will have plenty of time to go through the process of evolution. We cannot kill off the planet, just ourselves, and if that happens, as a species we will deserve it.