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slowmutant
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29 Sep 2008, 4:30 pm

I can't believe the temerity of British Muslims. In no uncertain terms they demand the total surrender of their host nation. They terrorize the people of Britain and walkaround like they own the place. It's an outrage to them that Britain has its own cultursal identity. Britsh Muslims are outraged by the fact that there is a place called Great Britain whose native religion is Christianity. :evil:



techstepgenr8tion
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29 Sep 2008, 4:42 pm

They have a brilliant free speech philosophy - that you can say *anything* and not get in trouble (or at least to a greater extent than in America). In America, if a mosque preaches overthrowing the country, that particular cleric would be arrested just because we do take that specific sort of speech seriously enough to consider it an authentic act of sedition.



crackedpleasures
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29 Sep 2008, 4:45 pm

And you seem to be outraged that Muslims are now starting to be part of that society, keeping their own cultural identity strong while more and more native Brits dont care about religion anymore?

For the record, the overwhelming majority of Muslims in the UK is not demanding sharia law, but I guess the media has a better story reporting about the minority shouting out loud. And of those who do ask for Sharia law, most dont ask for it to be applied as only legal system but only applied on request when both involved parties in a courtcase are Muslim and wish to have Sharia applied. In other words, Sharia as an option, not as a standard.

And many many Brits dont care about religion anymore or dont actively practise Christianity anymore. I dont see why it has to be offensive that some Muslims still hold on to their faith, it is not a race which religion is strongest or has most followers. It should not be a race anyway. You seem to be the outraged one, Slowmutant, not the muslims. No Muslim is asking Britain to "totally surrender".


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"Od lo avda tikvateinu" (excerpt from the Israeli hymn)


Last edited by crackedpleasures on 29 Sep 2008, 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

slowmutant
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29 Sep 2008, 4:46 pm

That *brilliant* free speech philosophy will be Britain's undoing. It might already be too late for the British people to act. This fawning over foreign oil-masters will eventually replace England's cathedrals with mosques and minarets.



slowmutant
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29 Sep 2008, 4:49 pm

crackedpleasures wrote:
And you seem to be outraged that Muslims are now starting to be part of that society, keeping their own cultural identity strong while more and more native Brits dont care about religion anymore?

For the record, the overwhelming majority of Muslims in the UK is not demanding sharia law, but I guess the media has a better story reporting about the minority shouting out loud. And of those who do ask for Sharia law, most dont ask for it to be applied as only legal system but only applied on request when both involved parties in a courtcase are Muslim and wish to have Sharia applied. In other words, Sharia as an option, not as a standard.

And many many Brits dont care about religion anymore or dont actively practise Christianity anymore. I dont see why it has to be offensive that some Muslims still hold on to their faith, it is not a race which religion is strongest or has most followers. It should not be a race anyway. You seem to be the outraged one, Slowmutant, not the muslims. No Muslim is asking Britain to "totally surrender".


No, this more than "holding onto their faith." This is about the systematic eradication of all things British and moreover all things Western. You see it from that pespective because you're one of them.

It irritates me when you down-play and hush-hush what's going on here. If Britain gets devoured by Islam, my homeland could be next. And of course that is not acceptable.



Last edited by slowmutant on 29 Sep 2008, 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

crackedpleasures
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29 Sep 2008, 4:50 pm

slowmutant wrote:
That *brilliant* free speech philosophy will be Britain's undoing. It might already be too late for the British people to act. This fawning over foreign oil-masters will eventually replace England's cathedrals with mosques and minarets.


If this means the British and European society gets the solidarity that I experienced in "islamic" Turkey, then bring it on. And mosques are beautiful buildings.

I really think you are making no sense. In general you seem a nice person, but here this just is exagerated to the full extent. A small minority of Muslims live in the UK, amongst that minority an even smaller minority is asking if Sharia can be applied as an OPTION (thus not in regular courtcases where no non muslims are involved) and you make it sound like a Wahhabist army is ready to overthrow the British government.

PS hopefully the mosques will have 4 minarets like it should be, and a nice dome with the crescent sign clearly marked. Those are my favourite mosques.


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every man and every woman is a star
(excerpt from The Book of the Law - Aleister Crowley)

"Od lo avda tikvateinu" (excerpt from the Israeli hymn)


slowmutant
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29 Sep 2008, 4:53 pm

Cathedrals are beautiful buildings as well.



crackedpleasures
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29 Sep 2008, 4:53 pm

slowmutant wrote:
crackedpleasures wrote:
And you seem to be outraged that Muslims are now starting to be part of that society, keeping their own cultural identity strong while more and more native Brits dont care about religion anymore?

For the record, the overwhelming majority of Muslims in the UK is not demanding sharia law, but I guess the media has a better story reporting about the minority shouting out loud. And of those who do ask for Sharia law, most dont ask for it to be applied as only legal system but only applied on request when both involved parties in a courtcase are Muslim and wish to have Sharia applied. In other words, Sharia as an option, not as a standard.

And many many Brits dont care about religion anymore or dont actively practise Christianity anymore. I dont see why it has to be offensive that some Muslims still hold on to their faith, it is not a race which religion is strongest or has most followers. It should not be a race anyway. You seem to be the outraged one, Slowmutant, not the muslims. No Muslim is asking Britain to "totally surrender".


No, this more than "holding onto their faith." This is about the systematic eradication of all things British and moreover all things Western. You see it from that pespective because you're one of them.


I am one of them??

I was born and raised in Belgium, Western Europe. I am atheist. My uncles and grandparents are all christians.

But I have travelled, looked further than my TV screen, and fell in love with certain aspects of Islamic culture. I am not religious, I am thus also not a Muslim. But I strongly respect them, and wish them to have their place in European society. Hatred and sectarianism never lead to anything useful. May they be accepted in Europe and practice their faith in peace, I dont see how this would do anyone harm. Again, apart from a very small minority of fanatics, nobody is asking Britain or Europe to throw away its own cultural roots. I dont see why the both cultures cannot live hand in hand, if Europe is too untolerant for that then I wonder if that is the Europe where I see my future to take place in.

and yes, cathedrals and churches can be great as well. I respect all religions, and I dont mind neither churches nor mosques in my streets. See, me defending Islam does not mean I am bashing Christianity. I respect both, I disrespect islamophobia though.


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Do what Thou wilt shal be the whole of the Law.
Love is the Law, Love under Will. And...
every man and every woman is a star
(excerpt from The Book of the Law - Aleister Crowley)

"Od lo avda tikvateinu" (excerpt from the Israeli hymn)


Last edited by crackedpleasures on 29 Sep 2008, 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

slowmutant
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29 Sep 2008, 4:54 pm

How would you react to Westerners hijacking your country?



slowmutant
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29 Sep 2008, 4:56 pm

Are you sure you're not a Muslim? I thought atheists sneered at religion.



crackedpleasures
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29 Sep 2008, 4:57 pm

slowmutant wrote:
How would you react to Westerners hijacking your country?


My country? If you mean my native country: this is a western country. So how can westerners hijack a country that is already western?

You confuse me with a Muslim very clearly. Again, I am not a Muslim, I am not religious. But I respect religions of all sorts, and that includes Islam. Hence why I stand up against intolerance towards Islam (without disrespecting Christianity)

And for the record, "my country" (not where I live but where I grew up) is being hijacked by far right racist politics, and that IMO is way worse than any Muslim demanding a bit of religious flexibility.


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Do what Thou wilt shal be the whole of the Law.
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every man and every woman is a star
(excerpt from The Book of the Law - Aleister Crowley)

"Od lo avda tikvateinu" (excerpt from the Israeli hymn)


techstepgenr8tion
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29 Sep 2008, 4:59 pm

crackedpleasures wrote:
If this means the British and European society gets the solidarity that I experienced in "islamic" Turkey, then bring it on. And mosques are beautiful buildings.


You've got me really curious on that one, partly because I know that Turkey is a moderate muslim country and because the pressures would have been even steeper from the radicals there than in Britain even. The only thing I'm afraid of though, Turkey (if I'm understanding right) took such decisive action on westernization that it took forever to be admitted into the E.U. due to 'violation of human rights'. Western democracies, places full of liberals and where individual liberties reign supreme, when you see what happened to Bush and Blaire, I don't know if countries such as Britain or the U.S. could conduct a purge-by-force sort of policy; the electorate would rather roll over and play dead.


The one bit of hope in all of this though, there was a recent article on Saudi Arabia and how apparently the moderate muslims are starting to lash back at the radicals; if they do really set an example at ironing things out there may be much more hope of Islam correcting its problems from within (which would be wonderful beyond words; it would mean the hawks in our country could relax and give peace much more of a chance).



slowmutant
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29 Sep 2008, 4:59 pm

Atheists do not repsect religion.



monty
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29 Sep 2008, 5:02 pm

slowmutant wrote:
I can't believe the temerity of British Muslims. In no uncertain terms they demand the total surrender of their host nation. They terrorize the people of Britain and walkaround like they own the place. It's an outrage to them that Britain has its own cultursal identity. Britsh Muslims are outraged by the fact that there is a place called Great Britain whose native religion is Christianity. :evil:


Ok, you are ranting. Take a deep breath. In - out. Good. Now read this 2008 article by the Archbishop of Canterbury, the head of the Anglican Church (the state church of the U.K.).

http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/1575



crackedpleasures
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29 Sep 2008, 5:10 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Are you sure you're not a Muslim? I thought atheists sneered at religion.


I respect all religions. I have no religion myself but have respect for anyones believes. I have christian friends but also jewish friends and islamic friends. I like multiculturalism in general. I can enjoy visiting a beautiful old cathedral in Rome, but just as well enjoy the beautiful sounds of the Arabic music with islamic messages. I am trying to keep an open mind, and to be tolerant.

I wonder where you get that atheists hate religion? I cannot prove god doesnt exist, so who am i to sneer at religions? As long as no clear proof of deities or non deities exists we will never know the truth if there is a god. Who am I to tell my friends (and as said, I have friends of different faiths) that they are wrong?

It is simply not truth that atheists disrespect religions. I respect everyones believes, be it Christianity, Islam or Judaism. I do wish they would be more mixed instead of the "each in his own territory" attitude, I think multiculturalism benefits anyone and makes us richer persons emotionally and intellectually.

techstepgenr8tion, what do you precisely want to ask about Turkey? I have lived there for a while, not long enough maybe to claim to be a specialist + Istanbul is a lot more moderate and secular than some smaller cities in Turkey so I experienced the more modern and less traditional side of Turkey. However, i can only say the tolerance and social feeling of the Turks was a lot nicer than the mentality in any of the 5 "western" countries where I lived.


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Do what Thou wilt shal be the whole of the Law.
Love is the Law, Love under Will. And...
every man and every woman is a star
(excerpt from The Book of the Law - Aleister Crowley)

"Od lo avda tikvateinu" (excerpt from the Israeli hymn)