Dr Fredrick Toben's arrest should alarm us all

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Orwell
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11 Oct 2008, 9:34 pm

^You're right, the resemblance is uncanny!

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claire-333
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11 Oct 2008, 9:39 pm

I cannot remember which thread, but this has been discussed before. I personally have no problem with the restrictions of freedom of speech in the US. In fact, I think they are very important. However, as for the example in the original topic...I do not see he has broken any US laws, but that does not mean another country cannot go after him.

Quote:

Freedom of speech in the United States
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and by many state constitutions and state and federal laws. Criticism of the government and advocation of unpopular ideas that people may find distasteful or against public policy, such as racism, are generally permitted. There are exceptions to the general protection of speech, however, including the Miller test for obscenity, child pornography laws, and regulation of commercial speech such as advertising. Other limitations on free speech often balance rights to free speech and other rights, such as property rights for authors and inventors (copyright), interests in fair political campaigns (Campaign finance laws), protection from imminent or potential violence against particular persons (restrictions on Hate speech or fighting words), or the use of untruths to harm others (slander). Distinctions are also often made between speech and other acts, such as flag desecration, which may have symbolic significance.

DentArthurDent
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11 Oct 2008, 9:40 pm

What are your views on behaviour/speech that is a deliberate attempt to incite violence and hatred

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claire-333
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11 Oct 2008, 9:43 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:

What are your views on behaviour/speech that is a deliberate attempt to incite violence and hatred

That is the definition of hate speech, which is illegal in the US, as it should be.

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11 Oct 2008, 9:43 pm

claire333 wrote:

I cannot remember which thread, but this has been discussed before.

The previous censorship debate was on a thread about Mein Kampf- in response to calls for the book to be banned, I linked to the full text about a dozen times.

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11 Oct 2008, 9:45 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:

What are your views on behaviour/speech that is a deliberate attempt to incite violence and hatred

As far as violence, that should be punished. But trying to ban "hate speech" as you call it only makes martyrs out of bigots. If you persecute someone, you are in a way conceding a loss to them. You can not defeat them in the open, so you must use brute force to silence them. It is weak and cowardly.

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claire-333
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11 Oct 2008, 9:45 pm

Orwell wrote:

claire333 wrote:

I cannot remember which thread, but this has been discussed before.

The previous censorship debate was on a thread about Mein Kampf- in response to calls for the book to be banned, I linked to the full text about a dozen times.

I remember when I was in highschool, my English teacher was so ticked when Little Black Sambo was removed from school libraries.

claire-333
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11 Oct 2008, 9:48 pm

Orwell wrote:

You can not defeat them in the open, so you must use brute force to silence them. It is weak and cowardly.

What if someone verbally threatens me with violence? Is it cowardly of me to resort to the brute force of the law? Or, should I just take my chances and try to defeat them in the open?

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11 Oct 2008, 9:54 pm

claire333 wrote:

Orwell wrote:

You can not defeat them in the open, so you must use brute force to silence them. It is weak and cowardly.

What if someone verbally threatens me with violence? Is it cowardly of me to resort to the brute force of the law? Or, should I just take my chances and try to defeat them in the open?

If there is reason to believe that someone intends to harm you, you should seek to protect yourself from them. And if it wasn't obvious enough, the speech we are referring to is that which expressions opinions and beliefs. Threats to harm someone should be taken seriously.

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DentArthurDent
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11 Oct 2008, 10:02 pm

As should attempts to incite others to violence. This is the freedom of speech that I have a problem with.

claire-333
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11 Oct 2008, 10:06 pm

Orwell wrote:

Fair enough. Don't get me wrong, because I've said it before, I am a big fan of free speech and prefer having the right to express my opinions and beleifs. However, I would hardly call it cowardly to rely on the law to stop someone from doing things like making statement of hate saying they believe a certain race should be killed, or steal copyrighted material, or harassing people with hundreds of phone calls, or printing child porn. I fully support the laws restricting free speech in the US, this would include hate speech right along with all the others.

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11 Oct 2008, 10:07 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:

As should attempts to incite others to violence. This is the freedom of speech that I have a problem with.

What, you mean telling people, "Go kill [x] group?" I'm not quite sure what you're referring to. Maybe a more concrete example would help?

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chever
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11 Oct 2008, 10:09 pm

Lao people who act like they black. There's too many of them!

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Orwell
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11 Oct 2008, 10:12 pm

claire333 wrote:

However, I would hardly call it cowardly to rely on the law to stop someone from doing things like making statement of hate saying they believe a certain race should be killed, or steal copyrighted material, or harassing people with hundreds of phone calls, or printing child porn. I fully support the laws restricting free speech in the US, this would include hate speech right along with all the others.

Advocating for killing people should be taken as a threat and treated as such.

Stealing copyrighted material is NOT free speech- it is theft. The copyright issue annoys me- better not to get me started on that, but I hate it when people try to refer to theft as free speech. It isn't.

Harassing people with hundreds of phone calls is spamming. That is harassment.

Printing child porn is not free speech. It is exploitation of children who can not consent to such things. It requires harm of another person.

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claire-333
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11 Oct 2008, 10:17 pm

Orwell wrote:

Advocating for killing people should be taken as a threat and treated as such.

Even if it is just their opinion?

I also agree on all you other points, so I will stop now.

Last edited by claire-333 on 12 Oct 2008, 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

DentArthurDent
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11 Oct 2008, 10:57 pm

Orwell wrote:

DentArthurDent wrote:

As should attempts to incite others to violence. This is the freedom of speech that I have a problem with.

What, you mean telling people, "Go kill [x] group?" I'm not quite sure what you're referring to. Maybe a more concrete example would help?

A recent event in Cronulla NSW where there was friction between middle eastern youths and the locals. SMS' started circulating encouraging non muslims to come to the beach and take it back, they also talked about bashing the wogs and lebs. Not only were these messages sent around they were also read aloud and supported on air by a very popular shock jock, Alan Jones. He nearly ran foul of the anti vilification laws.

The result was what we like to call the Cronulla Riots, it pleases me that Australia is in general such a peaceful country that this could ever be described as a major riot. Not to diminish what happened but it pales in comparison to what I have witnessed overseas

I think that all Australian states and terrritories have anti vilification laws

Here is the Victorian State version

http://www.humanrightscommission.vic.gov.au/publications/RRTA%20Materials/understanding%20the%20RRTA.asp

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