Dr Fredrick Toben's arrest should alarm us all

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Orwell
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11 Oct 2008, 9:06 pm

slowmutant wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Trying to go in the middle and have limited free speech is a tricky business. You will never get everyone to agree to where exactly the line should be drawn, and you'll end up with creeping censorship like the ever-growing Index of Prohibited Books that the Catholics maintained for hundreds of years. I prefer to draw no line, and allow all speech. I would rather have to tolerate a bit of hateful, offensive, and inflammatory language than risk impinging on anyone's freedom.

If you only care about yourself, free speech is meaningless.

Not sure what you're getting at. I'm advocating for people to be able to freely disagree with me and say things that offend me. How exactly is that only caring about myself? You're the one who made it about me.

slowmutant wrote:

So you think it's right for people to say all kinds of filfth and hate speech? As long as it doesn't bother you personally, right? As as you are not offended, it doesn't matter what people say, right?

Had you not made it about me, I would have made no such references.

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slowmutant
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11 Oct 2008, 9:11 pm

Okay.

I'm dizzy from going around in circles. :drunken: :hic:

Orwell
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11 Oct 2008, 9:13 pm

I'm still against censorship. No matter who a statement offends, it should be permitted. If the statement is false, then allowing it to be expressed openly allows others to refute it and show definitively how foolish it is. If it is true, then it should be permitted because Truth is more important than anyone's right not to be offended by something.

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slowmutant
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11 Oct 2008, 9:16 pm

Orwell wrote:

Oh, I disagree. That is Aspie philosophy.

greenblue
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11 Oct 2008, 9:22 pm

Orwell wrote:

I agree.

Slowmutant has the benefit of practicing his freedom of speech

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DentArthurDent
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11 Oct 2008, 9:22 pm

Managing free speech is fraught with dangers, so is not managing it. It is all well and good to say that you can say whatever you like because those in oposition will form a strong rebuttal. Unfortunately this requires amongst other things a broad ownership of media which we do not have.

Please Orwell do not refer to me as a moron as quite obviously I am not, neither are the members of the NSW government that saw the need to prevent hate crimes stirred up by racial and sexual vilification. Why dont you go around to the Somali family in melbourne whos son was murdered by thugs stirred up by racial stereotypes put accross on the mainstream Melbourne media. This is the problem with unfettered free speech, it can lead to unbridled hate.

I do not know quite how I would limit free speech, as I said this is an extremely dangerous thing to do. But I believe it needs careful and rigorous discussion because the alternative IS hurting people.

There are examples where democracy resides well alongside limited free speech. The US to my mind is not a good example of unfettered free speech, it is a basket case, of racial,sexual, religious etc killings.

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chever
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11 Oct 2008, 9:22 pm

Orwell wrote:

Even in the case of Michael Savage's hateful comments towards autistics, and even in the case of people like you demanding attacks on freedom itself, I still believe in freedom of speech.

Michael Savage is hilarious. He looks like Darth Vader without the helmet. Whoever doesn't find him uproariously funny needs to lighten up.

Now, as for you, slowmutant, I hope you've learned an important lesson today:

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Cyanide
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11 Oct 2008, 9:23 pm

skafather84 wrote:

freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom of only popular speech

That's a very good way of putting it, actually.

Orwell wrote:

I think the only censorship should be of the morons calling for abridging freedom of speech. [/intentional hypocrisy]

Seriously, Slowmutant and other censorship advocates: I've said it before, and I'll say it again; I consider your views to be infinitely more dangerous than that of Holocaust Deniers, Neo-Nazis, or Jihadists. But I still think you should be able to express those views. You can express any view you wish, no matter how offensive or wrong, and once those views are openly expressed they can be openly refuted, and free and public discourse will choose the best in the marketplace of ideas.

I couldn't agree more. Freedom of speech is tantamount to western society, and it deeply saddens me when I see these people who are trying to get rid of it. I don't think they understand how much freedom of speech has gotten us. It got women the vote, it got blacks civil rights, and it is the ONE thing keeping us from going into an Orwellian-style totalitarianism.

To Slowmutant, DentArthurDent, and the others who agree with them: People are going to get offended SOMETIME in their life, no matter what anti-free speech laws you pass. Hell, I get offended by people like you who are actively trying to have my freedom of speech taken away from me! If someone offends you, grow a pair of balls and either a) call them on it or b) ignore it and move on.
Another question for you: Exactly where would your "hate speech" laws stop? What if i said "I hate the government" or "I hate the Federal Reserve" or "I hate John McCain" ? Would I be thrown in jail then, too?

Last edited by Cyanide on 11 Oct 2008, 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Orwell
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11 Oct 2008, 9:24 pm

greenblue wrote:

Slowmutant has the benefit of practicing his freedom of speech

And yet wishes to restrict it from others. Ah, the irony.

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DentArthurDent
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11 Oct 2008, 9:28 pm

@ cyanide I would have thought taking on a bunch of yanks about freedom of speech was fairly ballsy :lol:

Orwell
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11 Oct 2008, 9:29 pm

Cyanide wrote:

To Slowmutant, DentArthurDent, and the others who agree with them: People are going to get offended SOMETIME in their life, no matter what anti-free speech laws you pass. Hell, I get offended by people like you who are actively trying to have my freedom of speech taken away from me! If someone offends you, grow a pair of balls and either a) call them on it or b) ignore it and move on.

Thank you for expressing this so clearly. Calling to abridge free speech pisses me off. A lot. It is one of the few things anyone can say that would ever anger me. As I've already said, I consider it worse than any of a number of other highly offensive things.

But I STILL think people should be allowed to say such things. Because if I am upset at something, that is my problem and not anyone else's.

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slowmutant
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11 Oct 2008, 9:30 pm

chever wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Even in the case of Michael Savage's hateful comments towards autistics, and even in the case of people like you demanding attacks on freedom itself, I still believe in freedom of speech.

I don't have to stop whining. You can't limit my free speech.

Orwell
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11 Oct 2008, 9:30 pm

slowmutant wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Oh, I disagree. That is Aspie philosophy.

And you're Aspie, aren't you?

I value truth, convenient and otherwise.

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Orwell
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11 Oct 2008, 9:31 pm

slowmutant wrote:

chever wrote:

Now, as for you, slowmutant, I hope you've learned an important lesson today:

I don't have to stop whining. You can't limit my free speech.

NOW you're catching on!

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greenblue
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11 Oct 2008, 9:31 pm

slowmutant wrote:

You can't limit my free speech.

Oh, the irony.

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chever
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11 Oct 2008, 9:32 pm

My final word on Michael Savage

He's both a clown and an alternative medicine quack; if you don't find him as funny as I do, be kind and ignore him.

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