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Haliphron
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08 Dec 2008, 10:37 pm

countzarroff
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09 Dec 2008, 12:19 am

Aw boo hoo hoo! You lost conservatives! You had you fun screwing up our economy, it was time for some real change!



Haliphron
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09 Dec 2008, 12:26 am

countzarroff wrote:
Aw boo hoo hoo! You lost conservatives! You had you fun screwing up our economy, it was time for some real change!



They lost the election, but its clear they havent lost their influence on policy :x . Im sick and tired of this sh1t, there Must be a social Saftety Net! The one that exists just aint good enough. There will always be a bottom but we as a society DO have control over how far down that bottom is. If I didnt had the support of my family I'd be collecting SSI welfare checks or be homeless and on the streets. If the latter happened I'd emmigrate to canada, legally or NOT! :lol:



gina-ghettoprincess
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09 Dec 2008, 10:31 am

Obama seems to be closing the gulf between the left and right, which is a good thing. What's up with all this verbal armageddon between liberals and conservatives? It's like all that crap in Ireland all over again, only now it's politics instead of religion.

Though I am a liberal myself, I feel that only sharing the opinions of one party is ridiculous. For example, it's supposedly liberals who advocate political-correctness (I'm not sure of the correct grammar for the term), but I'm really in the middle on that issue. I support racial equality and all that, but I think trying so hard not to offend people hinders progress, and as people can be offended by pretty much anything, it's pointless.

Like the whole debate over "Merry Christmas" being offensive to non-Christians. It's a futile argument, because people are free to believe what they want to believe. If the Christians want to celebrate Christmas, that's fine. If the Hindus, Muslims, Atheists, etc want to celebrate their own holidays or none at all, that's also fine. Nobody really gets offended by other people following their beliefs, do they? The people who get offended are people speaking on the behalf of non-Christians, as a result of post-9/11 paranoia (don't get me started on that, I could go on for hours). Get with the programme, people: nobody's going to bomb you for wishing your friend a merry Christmas.

That above was simply my opinion. I have no idea if it counts as liberal, conservative, or a mixture of the two. I'm just me.


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Nutterbug
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09 Dec 2008, 10:43 am

I often wonder if partisan politics is about upholding your principles or playing a team sport.

Why do ideologies have to come in 'packages' anyways?



DeLoreanDude
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09 Dec 2008, 11:44 am

gina-ghettoprincess wrote:
Like the whole debate over "Merry Christmas" being offensive to non-Christians. It's a futile argument, because people are free to believe what they want to believe. If the Christians want to celebrate Christmas, that's fine. If the Hindus, Muslims, Atheists, etc want to celebrate their own holidays or none at all, that's also fine. Nobody really gets offended by other people following their beliefs, do they? The people who get offended are people speaking on the behalf of non-Christians, as a result of post-9/11 paranoia (don't get me started on that, I could go on for hours). Get with the programme, people: nobody's going to bomb you for wishing your friend a merry Christmas.


I agree, and I'm glad here in the UK people dont think its offensive to say merry Christmas! :roll:

On the issue, I dont like how it said "in effect, that the new boss looks like the old boss.", where is all that change you promised so many times???



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09 Dec 2008, 1:31 pm

What I'm reading here is that left wing whack jobs are upset that despite voting for a guy to kick the right wing whack jobs out of office, the whack jobs that he's appointing aren't quite wacky enough for them. Sound about right?


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Orwell
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09 Dec 2008, 2:05 pm

Dox47 wrote:
What I'm reading here is that left wing whack jobs are upset that despite voting for a guy to kick the right wing whack jobs out of office, the whack jobs that he's appointing aren't quite wacky enough for them. Sound about right?

Pretty much. Is it really a surprise that a politician is backing down from his fantastic campaign promises?


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09 Dec 2008, 5:29 pm

Hmm, methinks that a certain political bloc is going to be very red faced once they realize that they fell for the same Karl Rove style bait and switch that the religious right has been suckered into for years. Who did they think he was going to put in his cabinet, Noam Chomsky and Dennis Kucinich? I'll hold off on any real gloating till after he actually takes office, I don't think I'm going to be wrong on this one, but I think that the far left has seriously overestimated their influence on their presidential pick.


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monty
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09 Dec 2008, 5:42 pm

Really ...? Obama campaigned on promises to include moderate Republicans and to govern from the center left. While the campaigning Republicans were hysterical about Obama being an extreme leftist, I never bought into that notion. I'm not expecting any thing extreme - after so many years of arrogant ideology and incompetence, having a decent pragmatic/moderate government will be a fresh of breath air. ;)



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09 Dec 2008, 5:47 pm

monty wrote:
Really ...? Obama campaigned on promises to include moderate Republicans and to govern from the center left. While the campaigning Republicans were hysterical about Obama being an extreme leftist, I never bought into that notion. I'm not expecting any thing extreme - after so many years of arrogant ideology and incompetence, having a decent pragmatic/moderate government will be a fresh of breath air. ;)

Obama has been promising universal health care, windfall profit taxes on oil companies, and a host of other far-left (by American standards at least) reforms. Now he is taking back those promises.


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z0rp
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09 Dec 2008, 5:51 pm

gina-ghettoprincess wrote:
Like the whole debate over "Merry Christmas" being offensive to non-Christians. It's a futile argument, because people are free to believe what they want to believe. If the Christians want to celebrate Christmas, that's fine. If the Hindus, Muslims, Atheists, etc want to celebrate their own holidays or none at all, that's also fine. Nobody really gets offended by other people following their beliefs, do they? The people who get offended are people speaking on the behalf of non-Christians, as a result of post-9/11 paranoia (don't get me started on that, I could go on for hours). Get with the programme, people: nobody's going to bomb you for wishing your friend a merry Christmas.

Eh, I'm an Atheist and I say Merry Christmas, I only hear Happy Holidays on TV or places like that. Some people though really like to b***h about everything, if someone wants to stick a tree with lights on it in their house in tribute to some cannibalistic man who got his ass stoned half to death then was nailed to a cross to sit out and rot I can care less honestly.



Nutterbug
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09 Dec 2008, 5:54 pm

I thought the tree was derived from some pagan tradition/ritual.

How many conifer trees could be found at the site of the Nativity in the middle of the Mid-Eastern desert anyways?



monty
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09 Dec 2008, 6:01 pm

Obama's plan for health care reform was not so different from McCain's. I would not even describe it as a universal coverage - no mandates for the individual, exemptions for some small businesses. The Obama health plan is designed to make things better, but is not utopian. It does not create a single payer government 'national' insurance plan that many leftists would like. All of this was established before the elections.


Quote:
... Both candidates propose reforms in which the health system would continue to be structured around private insurance markets, with a supporting role played by public insurance programs. But their plans diverge significantly on the way a reformed system should operate. McCain would change the tax code to encourage people to buy coverage through the individual insurance market and effectively loosen state rules governing the sale of insurance by allowing people to buy policies across state lines. Obama would encourage the continuing participation of employers in the health insurance system, expand eligibility for Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP), and create a new insurance market "exchange"—with consumer protections, choice of public and private health plans, and income-based premium subsidies ...


http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publica ... _id=707948


Hardly radical.


I am not a fan of the windfall profits tax for oil companies, but given the price of oil today, I doubt they would have any windfall profits in the next year or four. On the other hand, Obama didn't support the suspension of the gasoline tax, a proposal that Hillary and McCain supported (but which many economists dismissed as a populist stunt.



monty
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09 Dec 2008, 6:05 pm

Nutterbug wrote:
I thought the tree was derived from some pagan tradition/ritual.

How many conifer trees could be found at the site of the Nativity in the middle of the Mid-Eastern desert anyways?


Lebanon and Israel used to be the land of cedars (which are conifers) - cedars are mentioned several times in the Bible. Most of the Mediterranean had lush vegetation, even though the climate was semi-arid. Then the human population exploded and they cut down the trees and over-grazed the region.



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09 Dec 2008, 7:59 pm

Orwell wrote:
Obama has been promising universal health care, windfall profit taxes on oil companies, and a host of other far-left (by American standards at least) reforms. Now he is taking back those promises.


Obama never promised universal Health Care. All he's doing is trying to bring down premiums by pushing the insurance companies to fully adopt electronic records (which are cheaper to maintain and retrieve, and safer as long as proper backup procedures are maintained). That's just speeding up the inevitable by a decade or so, hardly radical.

I won't deny Obama is a liberal, but he's not the crazed radical leftest the McCain campaign tried to paint him. Heck he even got Robert Gates to stay on as Secretary of Defense
, how many radical presidents would not only appoint a republican to his cabinet, but appoint one to the department he differs most on.


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