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RobertN
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18 Dec 2005, 7:54 am

Ladysmokeater wrote:
RobertN wrote:
Ladysmokeater wrote:
robertN, What percentage of your gross income do you pay in taxes? Do you have a sales tax? What does your proptery taxes run?


Just wondering, because Ive come to the conclusion that nothing is ever free......


I don't pay anything because I am living on state benefits. Under our system, those who can afford it pay through taxes.

£0 - £2,000 pay 0%
£2,000 - £32,000 pay 22%
£32,000 and above pay 40%


These are the UK rates of Income Tax. An additional 50% tax rate for those earning over £100,000 is a proposed measure by the Liberal Democrats (of which I am an active member) to tax the wealthy a bit extra.


Ok maybe Im an idiot.... but what is that in US dollars? Does this include local taxes as well? Do yall have a sales tax?



Yes, we have council tax (local tax) based on the value of your property. Value Added Tax on all bought goods (excluding essentials) of 17.5%.

£1 = $1.80 approx.



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18 Dec 2005, 8:58 am

RobertN wrote:
Yes, we have council tax (local tax) based on the value of your property. Value Added Tax on all bought goods (excluding essentials) of 17.5%.

£1 = $1.80 approx.


So if you made 32000 in yoiur money thats about 57600 in dollars.... the taxes on that alone would amount to: 12672.00 dollars. thus leaving you with 44928.00. and you say that there is a 17.5% sales tax? holy crap! its 5% state wide here.... so if you spent 100.00 5.00 is sales tax in my county and state. Some localities get more. (lexington county is like 6%, Spartanburg City is at 8% on food Myrtle beach is another percent ans so on)Now if I made 44,000.00 a year Id be okay, but I make, currently less than half that BEFORE taxes. The percent I pay in taxes and social security is roughly 25%. And another 6% for state retirement. thats the figures from my withholding anyhow. My health insurance costs me about 135.00 a month, thats after taxes, ans doesnt include the copays, medicines etc. I pay proptery tax on my old (but still running knock on wood) car that now (thanks to the new road tax my county instated) is roughly 50.00 a year. Then every purchace, I pay 5% sales tax. Except fuel, thats much higher. Its something like 70cents a gallon, Id have to look it up to be sure. If I had so much as another dime taken out of my paycheck, Id be in the red. My health insurance goes up by about 20% every single year. And my pay only goes up 4% (6% if we are lucky). The government is already getting lets see..... literally half of what I make, and in some cases more. I dont qualify for free health care, Food Stamps, WIC, or anyother government program, yet I can barely stay afloat. Wait, there are many people at the grocery store that drive 75,000.00 cars who have food stamps and free health care....(I know, i uded to have to help load the groceries into their cars at the store I used to work at) *sigh*. If the United States added health care for everyone to our payouts, I wouldnt have enough left to eat. And I still wouldnt qualify for any programs....
If we had a 17.5% sales tax here, Id have to declare bankruptsy. You all are paying quite a bit in sales taxes.... Maybe our government would save money by making the positions in goverment Volunteer.... :wink:
I pay enough taxes as it is, but geeze, you all pay out the wazoo!



ed
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18 Dec 2005, 9:45 am

anarkhos wrote:
ed wrote:
Money isn't everything, for sure, but a LACK of money is.


My point was not that money is everything or nothing. My point is money itself doesn't create wealth, rather the saving and investing of money creates a capital structure which does.


Does that mean that money should only go to those who are already rich, because only they can afford to save and invest it?

anarkhos wrote:
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Redistributing wealth is good, especially in these days, when wealthy people are getting much richer, at the expense of everybody else.


By what logic are weathly people becoming richer at the expense of everyone else?

I might happen to agree with you, but I seriously doubt you understand how this is happening.


There are two main reasons why this is happening. The first is an increase in their wages; These are set by a board of directors, made up of other wealthy people. It has become a system of "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours." Not since 1929 (just before the stock market crash) has there been this much difference in wages between those who run companies and the average worker in those companies.
The second is that taxes on the very wealthy are falling dramatically - capital gains taxes and inheritance taxes especially. This money must be made up somewhere. The Republicans are even trying to cut benefits to the poor and to college students, in order to finance further tax cuts for the wealthy.

anarkhos wrote:
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Without redistribution, there will be revolution, and the wealthy won't just give up a little, they'll lose everything, possibly including their lives.


I hear this BS a lot, and yet the historical record says otherwise.

Most revolutions occur when people are liberated enough to see how poorly their king runs things. They occur out of specific grievances like taxes or institutional unemployment, caused by mismanagement from central planners.

Revolutions are not caused by an "Eat the Rich" mentality.


It was in France.

anarkhos wrote:
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It is also the CHRISTIAN thing to do. Jesus said "Love your neighbor as yourself." He also said "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."


Actually a correct translation is camel hair rope, but I digress...


Is your Bible the only Bible? These are direct quotations from the Holy Bible New International Version copyright 1978 by New York International Bible Society.

anarkhos wrote:
I seriously doubt many would consider theft on a grand scale the Christian thing to do.


Likewise mass murder, lying, "outing" CIA operatives, illegally spying on American citizens, etc.



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18 Dec 2005, 6:45 pm

ed wrote:
anarkhos wrote:
ed wrote:
Money isn't everything, for sure, but a LACK of money is.


My point was not that money is everything or nothing. My point is money itself doesn't create wealth, rather the saving and investing of money creates a capital structure which does.


Does that mean that money should only go to those who are already rich, because only they can afford to save and invest it?


1) I don't decide where money "should" go, except my own. Where it decidedly should NOT go is into a state bureaucracy. People who spend other people's money have no incentive to do so wisely, and as a matter of fact cannot even if they wish to.

2) The reason only the politically connected can save and invest money is due to monetary inflation. That is what keeps the working poor in poverty.

Quote:
anarkhos wrote:
Quote:
Redistributing wealth is good, especially in these days, when wealthy people are getting much richer, at the expense of everybody else.


By what logic are weathly people becoming richer at the expense of everyone else?

I might happen to agree with you, but I seriously doubt you understand how this is happening.


There are two main reasons why this is happening. The first is an increase in their wages; These are set by a board of directors, made up of other wealthy people. It has become a system of "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours." Not since 1929 (just before the stock market crash) has there been this much difference in wages between those who run companies and the average worker in those companies.
The second is that taxes on the very wealthy are falling dramatically - capital gains taxes and inheritance taxes especially. This money must be made up somewhere. The Republicans are even trying to cut benefits to the poor and to college students, in order to finance further tax cuts for the wealthy.



Both of your reasons are ridiculous.

First of all, you can't pay yourself into wealth. Giving oneself a raise doesn't work unless you're a Congressman or the mafia. If you own a business, you don't get a 'wage' in the first place. You make profits and losses after payroll and other costs. If managers (or "officers") are getting undeserved pay rises, that's the business of the owners. It's their money, their fault, and they have only themselves to blame for being taken for a ride. By no means is this a method that the rich get richer at the expense of everyone else. It is merely a means to con stupid, gullible owners.

Your rant on taxes is equally ridiculous. By what logic should there even be a capital gains tax?! This isn't money which is "made up" for the purpose of your socialistic meddling. These profits have ALREADY served the interest of consumers who have VOLUNTARILY exchanged them for goods and services including health and education.

What you have failed to explain is how the rich become richer at the expense of everyone else when these "benefits" are removed. You have it backwards my friend; taking subsidies away is not an expense!

Quote:

anarkhos wrote:
Quote:
Without redistribution, there will be revolution, and the wealthy won't just give up a little, they'll lose everything, possibly including their lives.


I hear this BS a lot, and yet the historical record says otherwise.

Most revolutions occur when people are liberated enough to see how poorly their king runs things. They occur out of specific grievances like taxes or institutional unemployment, caused by mismanagement from central planners.

Revolutions are not caused by an "Eat the Rich" mentality.


It was in France.


The precursor to the French Revolution more closely resembles my description than yours.

In any case, your argument boils down to blackmail.

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anarkhos wrote:
Quote:
It is also the CHRISTIAN thing to do. Jesus said "Love your neighbor as yourself." He also said "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."


Actually a correct translation is camel hair rope, but I digress...


Is your Bible the only Bible? These are direct quotations from the Holy Bible New International Version copyright 1978 by New York International Bible Society.


The stories in the Bible weren't written in english. The original story was told and written in Aramaic, then it was translated to Greek (where the word kamêlos was probably intended instead of kamilos), and then to english.

(site is screwed up, so I used google cache)

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:MJ4B ... aicnt.org/

Quote:
anarkhos wrote:
I seriously doubt many would consider theft on a grand scale the Christian thing to do.


Likewise mass murder, lying, "outing" CIA operatives, illegally spying on American citizens, etc.


Where the HELL did THAT COME FROM?!?! 8O



Mithrandir
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19 Dec 2005, 3:21 am

Quote:
First of all, you can't pay yourself into wealth. Giving oneself a raise doesn't work unless you're a Congressman or the mafia. If you own a business, you don't get a 'wage' in the first place. You make profits and losses after payroll and other costs. If managers (or "officers") are getting undeserved pay rises, that's the business of the owners. It's their money, their fault, and they have only themselves to blame for being taken for a ride. By no means is this a method that the rich get richer at the expense of everyone else. It is merely a means to con stupid, gullible owners.


Are you talking about Fraud?


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anarkhos
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19 Dec 2005, 4:18 am

Mithrandir wrote:
Quote:
First of all, you can't pay yourself into wealth. Giving oneself a raise doesn't work unless you're a Congressman or the mafia. If you own a business, you don't get a 'wage' in the first place. You make profits and losses after payroll and other costs. If managers (or "officers") are getting undeserved pay rises, that's the business of the owners. It's their money, their fault, and they have only themselves to blame for being taken for a ride. By no means is this a method that the rich get richer at the expense of everyone else. It is merely a means to con stupid, gullible owners.


Are you talking about Fraud?


Paying yourself into wealth isn't fraud, it's an impossibility.

Fooling your employer into giving you an undeserved pay rise all depends what you consider undeserved. It usually doesn't involve so much fraud as crass stupidity by the owners. If you're buying a company whose business you have no clue about, who is to blame there?

Unfortunately a lot of people are part-owner in companies they don't have a clue about. The primary reason for this is because of monetary inflation. Not only does inflation cause financial assets to increase in price at a faster rate than other prices, it also diminishes the value of cash and interest on CDs.

So no, I'm not talking about fraud by the managers so much as greed by the owners, thinking they could buy something for nothing.



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19 Dec 2005, 4:49 am

endersdragon wrote,

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Wait werent our founding fathers patroits because they thought our country should be free.


Free from taxation without representation.

The were like a labor union.
A group of people joining togather to fight the tyranny of their oppressors.

knowing full well that the individual has no chance against an opressing regime.

Freedom of the individual was never part of the agreement, otherwise they would not have condoned slavery. And freedom is a pretty wide open term. But they didn't include absolute freedom in the constitution, they offered instead, CERTAIN INALIENABLE RIGHTS. which consequently have eroded under the tyranny of our current opressors.

The reason they established a checks and balance system of the legislature, president and supreme court (currently the media is consi
dered the 4th estate) was so they could justify the no taxation w/o representation rally cry, as a means of gathering support.

Also, they set up the constitution as a working contract, which means it is flexible and may be adapted with the changing wishes of society. The simple fact that we operate society in America under a working constitution is the greatest asset the individual has. Rulers will always abuse their post. As we have seen with the adaptation to the inalienable rights.
Bear arms-attacked
right to form militia-suppressed (handled by the 4th estate)
private property-why do i need to ask permission to make changes to my own home. Why property tax?
Speech-you may burn the american flag but not yell "fire in a crowded theatre
religions-areNative Americans allowed to smoke peyote in public

But remember as these right continue to erode. the people have a final say. Its just that american people are content and choose not to speak.


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RobertN
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19 Dec 2005, 6:35 pm

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I pay enough taxes as it is, but geeze, you all pay out the wazoo!


yeah...but we don't need health insurance

plus don't forget, my angel :wink: , that you would only pay 40% tax on the income you earn over £32,000.

Say you earn £44,000 (which is a very high salary in the UK)

The first £2,000 is tax free.
The next £30,000 is taxed at 22%
The final £12,000 is taxed at 40%

Therefore, you would pay £11,400 in tax per year, leaving you with £32,600. It only begins to bite when you are earning lots of money, and then it doesn't matter because you can afford it anyway!! ! :wink:



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19 Dec 2005, 7:11 pm

Why have so many brittish rockstars become american or other citizens elsewhere, but the UK.

Because of the suppressing rate by which you are compelled to pay taxes.


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19 Dec 2005, 8:06 pm

SB2 wrote:
Why have so many brittish rockstars become american or other citizens elsewhere, but the UK.

Because of the suppressing rate by which you are compelled to pay taxes.


It's worse than that. The UK tax laws are so draconian many rock tours skip the UK because making money in the UK makes the entire tour taxable.



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19 Dec 2005, 11:20 pm

SB2 wrote:
Why have so many brittish rockstars become american or other citizens elsewhere, but the UK...


Ever since 'This is Spinal Tap' came out, no one could take them seriously anymore.



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20 Dec 2005, 12:01 am

What do you mean?

Nobody takes brittish rockstars serious

or

the draconian tax laws

remember, taxation without representation was our excuse. you may borrow it if you'd like.


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20 Dec 2005, 12:41 am

Nothing serious, It was just a flippant remark.

'This is Spinal Tap' was a spoof 'rockumentary' film from the early 80s (iirc) which poked fun at a fictional british rock band trying to revive a flagging career. A lot of the jokes were lifted directly from real life events & personalities in british rock, none of whom thought it was very funny (although it was,and very!).

Heavy metal originated in England, but now its coverage & popularity is virtually zero, whereas in Europe its still going strong. If you mention heavy metal to a brit these days, they are very likely to laugh and quote their favourite line from spinal tap.



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20 Dec 2005, 7:58 pm

Man has this thread gotten wayyyyy off topic.

Man.



Larval
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20 Dec 2005, 7:59 pm

To clarify: Not really compaining though. Still learning loads.



ed
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20 Dec 2005, 8:10 pm

Possibly this is a better direction... :D