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Remnant
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09 Dec 2005, 2:41 am

toddjh wrote:
ed wrote:
Now my question: why does Socialism have to involve loss of freedom or privacy? I envision a Socialist state where people have more freedom than we have now, not less.


Socialism generally has more taxation than other systems, and taxation is inherently a violation of privacy; specifically, our freedom to handle our own property and finances as we see fit. In an ideal world, it wouldn't be any of the government's business how much money you made or what you did with it.

Like I said, though, this isn't an ideal world and it's a tradeoff between those rights and the need for a stable society, so don't think I'm necessarily complaining. It's all about finding the proper balance.

Jeremy


Is it not also unethical to demand more from a worker than he or she can give, to work them too hard with too little reward, to burn them out so that only a few people can make it at all in a job that pays a living wage?



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09 Dec 2005, 6:58 am

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From each according to his ability; to each according to his need" has a certain populist appeal, but is a highly unethical position when you think about it. It's the antithesis of personal responsibility. Industriousness is not rewarded and laziness is not punished.


I don't see what is ethical about encouraging greed. Sod personal responsibility - what about Collective Responsibility?



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09 Dec 2005, 8:59 am

RobertN wrote:
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From each according to his ability; to each according to his need" has a certain populist appeal, but is a highly unethical position when you think about it. It's the antithesis of personal responsibility. Industriousness is not rewarded and laziness is not punished.


I don't see what is ethical about encouraging greed. Sod personal responsibility - what about Collective Responsibility?


Not so much unethical as it is unavoidable.

As has been stated, there is no such thing as a pure money free society. Even countries that are communist in name end up embracing elements of capitalism (and end up being socialist like the USA) or else because cruel dictatorships (e.g. the USSR).

There are those who don't need that sort of encouragement to be productive, and I will always value such people highly and look upon them with great respect. But most people need greed or fear to be made to work. If it came down to a choice between the two, which would you pick?



toddjh
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09 Dec 2005, 11:29 am

RobertN wrote:
I don't see what is ethical about encouraging greed. Sod personal responsibility - what about Collective Responsibility?


I think we're talking about different things. When I say "personal responsibility," I mean accepting responsibility for the consequences of your own actions. Surely that's a good thing under any economic system?

Jeremy



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09 Dec 2005, 12:23 pm

ed wrote:
stellacotton wrote:
Sometimes it seems having you moderate this thread specifically when it comes to politics is akin to having an alcoholic tend to the liquor store. :lol:


I'm ok, unless Bush joins WP. Then I'd have to stop attacking him here, I guess. :lol:


Most of the attacks on Bush are attacks on his policies, rather than personal attacks. In this case, its no worse than saying the same thing to someone like Sean.

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Now my question: why does Socialism have to involve loss of freedom or privacy? I envision a Socialist state where people have more freedom than we have now, not less


same


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Last edited by Assassin on 09 Dec 2005, 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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09 Dec 2005, 12:30 pm

Larval wrote:
But most people need greed or fear to be made to work. If it came down to a choice between the two, which would you pick?


The third option - reason

In fact, if anyone tried to make me work throogh fear, it wood probably make me more likely not to work, throogh defiance.


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09 Dec 2005, 12:36 pm

Assassin wrote:
Larval wrote:
But most people need greed or fear to be made to work. If it came down to a choice between the two, which would you pick?


The third option - reason


Sadly, in spite of being the best one, that is not an option for many people.

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In fact, if anyone tried to make me work throogh fear, it wood probably make me more likely not to work, throogh defiance.


Agreed. That's why an economy run by fear doesn't work (pun not intended).



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09 Dec 2005, 12:57 pm

Larval wrote:
Assassin wrote:
Larval wrote:
But most people need greed or fear to be made to work. If it came down to a choice between the two, which would you pick?


The third option - reason


Sadly, in spite of being the best one, that is not an option for many people.


I hate to say it, but I can see that your rite about that - just to give an example, on another thred in this forum, *** made a big long speech about how 9/11 probably had nothing to do with Islamic extremists, with rock solid points and evidence, and then Sean went on to say 1 word - "bullsh*t". He gave no reesoning whatsoever, hes just apparently incapable of seeing reeson.

Heres a link to the thred - http://www.wrongplanet.net/asperger.html?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=8202

Actaully, he didnt say bullsh*t, he posted a pic of a bull sh*tting, which i have to admit was... KINDA funny, but it was certenly not a reeson why he didnt beleeve it :roll:


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toddjh
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09 Dec 2005, 1:01 pm

Assassin wrote:
The third option - reason


I dunno. Is it reasonable to work hard, knowing that the rewards of your labor will be going to people who, honestly, probably deserve them less? What's more, is it ethical? Doesn't it encourage lazy people to be even lazier? Shouldn't we be teaching people to stand on their own two feet, rather than leech off others?

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In fact, if anyone tried to make me work throogh fear, it wood probably make me more likely not to work, throogh defiance.


Agreed. This is largely what happened in the Soviet Union.

Jeremy



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09 Dec 2005, 1:17 pm

toddjh wrote:
Assassin wrote:
The third option - reason


I dunno. Is it reasonable to work hard, knowing that the rewards of your labor will be going to people who, honestly, probably deserve them less? What's more, is it ethical? Doesn't it encourage lazy people to be even lazier? Shouldn't we be teaching people to stand on their own two feet, rather than leech off others?


Its reesonable nowing that otherwise the economy wont be able to sustain itself. And its reesonable even to work hard when the rewards of your labour mite, partly, be going to people who deserve it less, in the noledge that the alternative is to have a system of exploitation the underclasses, and starvation of those who work hard for the little they get anyway.


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09 Dec 2005, 1:19 pm

Christ i started this thred 2 days ago and theres allreddy 8 pages on it >.<

Gotta be a record.

Yay i won a record!! !! !! !! !! ^_^;;


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09 Dec 2005, 1:22 pm

Assassin wrote:
Its reesonable nowing that otherwise the economy wont be able to sustain itself.


It's more reasonable to switch to an economic model that can sustain people without that variety of inherent injustice. :)

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And its reesonable even to work hard when the rewards of your labour mite, partly, be going to people who deserve it less, in the noledge that the alternative is to have a system of exploitation the underclasses, and starvation of those who work hard for the little they get anyway.


Nobody is starving in America. Even the poorest people have televisions and refrigerators. Compare with the communist paradise which was the former Soviet Union, where people had to wait in line all day just for a small ration of bread.

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09 Dec 2005, 1:35 pm

toddjh wrote:
Assassin wrote:
Its reesonable nowing that otherwise the economy wont be able to sustain itself.


It's more reasonable to switch to an economic model that can sustain people without that variety of inherent injustice. :)


I ment its more reesonable ON AN INDIVIDUAL LEVEL. One person dosent make the decision to switch back.

toddjh wrote:
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And its reesonable even to work hard when the rewards of your labour mite, partly, be going to people who deserve it less, in the noledge that the alternative is to have a system of exploitation the underclasses, and starvation of those who work hard for the little they get anyway.



Nobody is starving in America.


No, but lots of peeple are starving in Africa, and theres more than enuff money in America to feed all of them, but no, it goes on nukes, etc insted.


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09 Dec 2005, 1:48 pm

Assassin wrote:
No, but lots of peeple are starving in Africa, and theres more than enuff money in America to feed all of them, but no, it goes on nukes, etc insted.


The problems in Africa are political, not economic. If we sent them more money, it would just end up lining the pockets of the dictators and petty warlords like all the rest, and the people would still be starving.

There's more than enough resources in most African countries for them to feed themselves; it's just that the corrupt governments stop the food from being produced or getting where it needs to go. The problem needs to be solved at the source, or otherwise simply throwing more money at it will only serve to perpetuate the status quo.

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09 Dec 2005, 2:48 pm

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If we sent them more money, it would just end up lining the pockets of the dictators and petty warlords like all the rest, and the people would still be starving


Then use the money to buy food, and send the food

How can you not see that thats a perfectly adequate solution/.


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09 Dec 2005, 3:00 pm

Assassin wrote:
Then use the money to buy food, and send the food

How can you not see that thats a perfectly adequate solution/.


Because we've tried that, too -- see Ethiopia and Somalia, where food shipments were hijacked and the drivers killed by warlords' forces. Hunger is a very useful political tool, and those in power are anxious to keep it. Food shipments have a habit of not getting where they're needed.

Regardless, the problem is mainly the people's lack of money to buy the food, not the lack of food. Additionally, foreign food aid (when it works) has the effect of further destabilizing the local agricultural economy, making it that much harder for the people to get back on their feet, and making them dependent on Western imports. This tends to serve the interests of American agricultural corporations, not the Africans.

Really, the only solution is to solve the problem at the source. Stabilize the continent, somehow. After that, things will sort themselves out. There's no reason Africa can't have a thriving economy. In fact, some countries, like Zimbabwe, are really quite fertile and resource-rich. Zimbabwe should be exporting food to most of the other countries in the region. The only reason there's a famine is because Mugabe is in charge.

Jeremy