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Ants or citizens?

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paolo
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21 Jan 2009, 12:47 pm

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x215 ... oooo-1.jpg



Awesomelyglorious
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21 Jan 2009, 12:48 pm

In my utopian vision of society, the 2 are one and the same.



LostInEmulation
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24 Jan 2009, 7:45 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
In my utopian vision of society, the 2 are one and the same.


That would be dystopian.


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history_of_psychiatry
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24 Jan 2009, 8:04 pm

I'd say it's a mix. Half ants and half citizens. That is, unless the ants have their legal papers with them.


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Awesomelyglorious
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24 Jan 2009, 8:05 pm

LostInEmulation wrote:
That would be dystopian.

One man's dystopia, another's utopia. I think a lot of people would be pissed off by Plato's republic.



Orwell
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24 Jan 2009, 9:27 pm

They can't be citizens unless there is some formalized system of government that grants them that status. They're ants.

Were there supposed to be some deeper philosophical implications there?


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greenblue
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24 Jan 2009, 9:51 pm

I'll say citizens, it changes 'extermination' to 'genocide' which makes it more fun.


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Awesomelyglorious
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24 Jan 2009, 9:51 pm

Orwell wrote:
Were there supposed to be some deeper philosophical implications there?

Your mom's a deeper philosophical implication.



greenblue
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24 Jan 2009, 10:04 pm

Orwell wrote:
They can't be citizens unless there is some formalized system of government that grants them that status. They're ants.

well, apparantely they have structure, they seem to be organized.

Quote:
Were there supposed to be some deeper philosophical implications there?

well, here are few examples of philosophical issues related to ants:

Are humans more valuable than ants?
Is there a justified reason to state that mankind to be more precious than ants?
Do ants have a soul?
Why the extermination of ants is not considered a crime?


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Orwell
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24 Jan 2009, 10:29 pm

greenblue wrote:
Orwell wrote:
They can't be citizens unless there is some formalized system of government that grants them that status. They're ants.

well, apparantely they have structure, they seem to be organized.

Organized, yes, but I don't think they have a formal constitution. Besides that, individual ants are supposedly expendable to the community as a whole, so if ants are a state they are a fascist one. You aren't so much a citizen when you live in a fascist state.

Quote:
Quote:
Were there supposed to be some deeper philosophical implications there?

well, here are few examples of philosophical issues related to ants:

1) Are humans more valuable than ants?
2) Is there a justified reason to state that mankind to be more precious than ants?
3) Do ants have a soul?
4) Why the extermination of ants is not considered a crime?

I don't see how these particular questions relate to the picture, but I'll answer them anyways. (I've numbered them for easy reference)

1) We haven't defined value, but from a human's perspective, yes. From an ant's perspective, no. I'm a human, and I'm bigger and stronger than the ants, so I win. Humans are more valuable than ants.
2) Not really. Aside from perhaps there being less of us than of them, but that doesn't mean much. They probably fill a larger ecological niche than us.
3) I don't think so.
4) Because they are viewed as unimportant, and they get in our way.


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Awesomelyglorious
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24 Jan 2009, 10:43 pm

greenblue wrote:
well, here are few examples of philosophical issues related to ants:

Are humans more valuable than ants?
Is there a justified reason to state that mankind to be more precious than ants?
Do ants have a soul?
Why the extermination of ants is not considered a crime?

No, vice versa.

No, of course not, because the opposite is true.

Yes, duh.

Because people are evil, so evil people won't make evil a crime.



Sand
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25 Jan 2009, 4:07 am

Orwell wrote:
greenblue wrote:
Orwell wrote:
They can't be citizens unless there is some formalized system of government that grants them that status. They're ants.

well, apparantely they have structure, they seem to be organized.

Organized, yes, but I don't think they have a formal constitution. Besides that, individual ants are supposedly expendable to the community as a whole, so if ants are a state they are a fascist one. You aren't so much a citizen when you live in a fascist state.

Quote:
Quote:
Were there supposed to be some deeper philosophical implications there?

well, here are few examples of philosophical issues related to ants:

1) Are humans more valuable than ants?
2) Is there a justified reason to state that mankind to be more precious than ants?
3) Do ants have a soul?
4) Why the extermination of ants is not considered a crime?

I don't see how these particular questions relate to the picture, but I'll answer them anyways. (I've numbered them for easy reference)

1) We haven't defined value, but from a human's perspective, yes. From an ant's perspective, no. I'm a human, and I'm bigger and stronger than the ants, so I win. Humans are more valuable than ants.
2) Not really. Aside from perhaps there being less of us than of them, but that doesn't mean much. They probably fill a larger ecological niche than us.
3) I don't think so.
4) Because they are viewed as unimportant, and they get in our way.



When people are classified as soldiers, collateral damage, to old or too poor to afford the medical help they need, too poor to afford proper nourishment or decent living accommodations, criminal, unwanted aliens, refugees, fetuses that are damaged or not developed sufficiently to be accepted as human, then they are also considered expendable and no different than ants.



Awesomelyglorious
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25 Jan 2009, 1:17 pm

Sand wrote:
When people are classified as soldiers, collateral damage, to old or too poor to afford the medical help they need, too poor to afford proper nourishment or decent living accommodations, criminal, unwanted aliens, refugees, fetuses that are damaged or not developed sufficiently to be accepted as human, then they are also considered expendable and no different than ants.

False, all of those groups are considered more important than ants.



NeantHumain
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25 Jan 2009, 1:42 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
LostInEmulation wrote:
That would be dystopian.

One man's dystopia, another's utopia. I think a lot of people would be pissed off by Plato's republic.

Yes, in many respects, Plato's Republic is a Republican's wet dream: rigid hierarchy of power, "noble lies" (equivalent to Christianity here). That he wants to see the wisest in power is the only boon.



Awesomelyglorious
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25 Jan 2009, 2:59 pm

NeantHumain wrote:
Yes, in many respects, Plato's Republic is a Republican's wet dream: rigid hierarchy of power, "noble lies" (equivalent to Christianity here). That he wants to see the wisest in power is the only boon.

Well, honestly, I'd think that "rigid hierarchy of power" wouldn't be what they'd want given that the hierarchy in the Republic is that of a caste system, and Republicans, like all other liberals(referring to the foundations of the US system), do not like castes. Not only that, but many Republican voters believe that Christianity is true, really the noble lies would likely be more in reference to patriotism. In any case, there are a lot of aspects that Republicans would seem not to like, such as the abolition of the family.

In any case, you seem to like bashing Republicans without regard for the flimsiness of the excuse to do so anyway.



history_of_psychiatry
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25 Jan 2009, 4:10 pm

Orwell wrote:
They can't be citizens unless there is some formalized system of government that grants them that status. They're ants.

Were there supposed to be some deeper philosophical implications there?


It was meant to be humorous. You know what humor is right? You know like "haha funny"? Don't take everything so literally even if the joke is stupid :lol:


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