Post-Partum Depression & Moms Who Kill Their Kids

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merrymadscientist
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20 Feb 2009, 3:40 pm

For a woman who kills her own child I feel only an intense sympathy - to do that she must be suffering so much. I don't quite understand why I have an inibility to empathise with most everyday problems (like NTs can do), but am able to understand and feel sympathy for people that commit the most horrible crimes. Mainly because to commit such crimes there must be a reason, and if I can understand this reason then I can sympathise (a sort of logical empathy).

I have no child, but I have experienced severe psychotic depression, and can imagine how in that state I could kill or injure someone that I love (too) intensely. Perhaps I don't deserve to live. Perhaps none of us that don't fit into this world properly do. Whether the act happens or not depends purely on the circumstances. I know that the possibility of it is present in my personality. Most people would deny it, but I imagine it is present in their's too - if they were pushed hard enough most people would kill - even their own children.



claire-333
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20 Feb 2009, 4:32 pm

I still have trouble being truly sympathetic on this issue.I also still have trouble thinking it is really an issue of depression. It seems like every case I recall hearing or reading about, it seems to me they were not able to tolerate the baby's cries. I wonder if it has something to do with pitch.



Last edited by claire-333 on 20 Feb 2009, 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Haliphron
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20 Feb 2009, 4:52 pm

merrymadscientist wrote:
For a woman who kills her own child I feel only an intense sympathy - to do that she must be suffering so much. I don't quite understand why I have an inibility to empathise with most everyday problems (like NTs can do), but am able to understand and feel sympathy for people that commit the most horrible crimes. Mainly because to commit such crimes there must be a reason, and if I can understand this reason then I can sympathise (a sort of logical empathy).

I have no child, but I have experienced severe psychotic depression, and can imagine how in that state I could kill or injure someone that I love (too) intensely. Perhaps I don't deserve to live. Perhaps none of us that don't fit into this world properly do. Whether the act happens or not depends purely on the circumstances. I know that the possibility of it is present in my personality. Most people would deny it, but I imagine it is present in their's too - if they were pushed hard enough most people would kill - even their own children.
:evil:

This is the reason why I defended Jailhouse Justice in previous threads. IMHO, (female)prisoners , especially in the UK and Europe, are spoiled ROTTEN. Just so you know merrymadscientist, in the past I have advocated that women be treated as property BECAUSE of their propensity to do such things. Women are ruled by their emotions and the politically incorrect truth is that they are unfit to make such decisions-EVEN with their own children.



Chibi_Neko
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20 Feb 2009, 5:43 pm

Haliphron wrote:
Just so you know merrymadscientist, in the past I have advocated that women be treated as property BECAUSE of their propensity to do such things. Women are ruled by their emotions and the politically incorrect truth is that they are unfit to make such decisions-EVEN with their own children.


You're kidding right?
Don't you get the fact that there are women who get post-partum depression are also women who planned the pregnancy and really wanted children? They where just unlucky that their hormones could not deal with the shock. Most women with this illness don't want to harm or kill their babies, but that is what post-partum depression does, you are no longer right in the head and you do things that lack judgement.

These women need serious help, not thrown in a cell for them to 'get over it', when that isn't the proper enviroment to get mental help in.

There is a woman to lives really close to me, she is a very intellegent person, perfectlly sound and mentally healthy. She has a loving and super-supportive husband and family, and good friends. They planned to have a baby, and they had one. For the first week she was fine, but after she knew something was wrong, she did not feel right and began to cry without knowing any reason to cry about. It got so bad that she could not get out of bed and would cring if she hear her baby cry, and felt terrible. All of her family are caring for her and the baby, and I think the depression passed after a month, and she is happy as a blue bird.


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DentArthurDent
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20 Feb 2009, 6:12 pm

merrymadscientist wrote:
For a woman who kills her own child I feel only an intense sympathy - to do that she must be suffering so much. I don't quite understand why I have an inibility to empathise with most everyday problems (like NTs can do), but am able to understand and feel sympathy for people that commit the most horrible crimes. Mainly because to commit such crimes there must be a reason, and if I can understand this reason then I can sympathise (a sort of logical empathy).


Read this Slowmutant, Read it again, then try and understand it. If you cant then may be you will understand why I do not consider people with your views to be christians but instead, nasty vengeful asses.

As to your stupid attempted strawman of course I have not suffered PND. I do however have a degree in Health Sciences and therefore have a basic understanding of the effect and power of hormones on the body, especially the extremes caused during female reproduction. You suffer from some kind of chronic depression, which must be terrible. PND often is very acute, leading to a massive and overwhelming bout of depression, unlike you when this happens she has the added burden of a brand new and demanding baby.

I am not going to pretend to know what it is like to have PND, Like MMS I can only come to the conclusion that for a mother to break the natural maternal instinct to protect her baby and instead kill it there must be something terrible going on inside her brain.

PND is acute and occurs only when birthing. In other words a mother commiting this kind of infanticide is NOT a danger to society, and instead of our vengeance and hate should be shown care and support to help her recover from this traumatic event.


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0_equals_true
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20 Feb 2009, 6:17 pm

Haliphron wrote:
:evil:

This is the reason why I defended Jailhouse Justice in previous threads. IMHO, (female)prisoners , especially in the UK and Europe, are spoiled ROTTEN. Just so you know merrymadscientist, in the past I have advocated that women be treated as property BECAUSE of their propensity to do such things. Women are ruled by their emotions and the politically incorrect truth is that they are unfit to make such decisions-EVEN with their own children.


Have you ever thought that one day your brain might desert you and you will act on one of your impulses? It is a possibility. I suppose that is one way to fulfil your jailhouse justice fantasy

There are pathologies and pathologies, not forgetting the copy cats. Each has their modus operndi even D1nk0. Who knows what causes men to the kill their kids then themselves, like the recent bout of cases.



Last edited by 0_equals_true on 20 Feb 2009, 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DentArthurDent
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20 Feb 2009, 6:19 pm

greenblue wrote:
I don't know, but I can say that sometimes it feels like arguing with Homer Simpson himself :P


Na Homer would have a far deeper understanding of the issues involved :wink:


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sartresue
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20 Feb 2009, 6:25 pm

Proper treatment topic

Women are devalued...hmmm

Women are property...hmmm

Women are disposable, spoiled rotten...hmmm

Sounds as if Mr. Haliphron is very displeased with more than half of humanity. May his tribe not increase.

But getting back to the subject of mothers who murder their children: This is a feminist thing? As far as I know, murder is wrong, even if a psychopathic male murders 50 women, either in serial or mass fashion.

A mother murdering her child(ren) is still very rare. But when it hits the news, it destroys the image we have of how a mother should be. And the correct diagnosis for a mother who has murdered offspring is Post Partum Psychosis. Google it and find out more.

I have had the baby blues and a mild case of post partum depression after my second child was born. The depression made me listless, not murderous. Hormone imbalances are to blame for the blues and depression. The psychosis is something more like a chemical imbalance. Very damaging, dangerous. I watched for signs of this, but thankfully, nothing happened. Six months after my son was born, I was back to my old logical Asperger self, boring, maybe, but functioning correctly.

Any women who still feels depressed three months after a child is born should be making an appointment with a specialist in this area. When I learned why I felt the way I did (though I had no idea of AS at that time) I was able to work through the issues. Hormones have a nasty impact on AS women. I have no idea how many AS women murder their children, because there may well be few AS women who give birth. If this is the case, then it may be an NT thing. Maybe AS women who have kids are committed to doing the best job. I know I worked hard. And this approach may not benefit all women.

All murder is wrong, and the perpetrators punished. The message has got to get out that if a woman is feeling that bad about parenting, then surrendering the child to a children's aid society is warranted.

As for men who feel that they might murder? Let us hope they have the sense to seek assistance before they murder other men, women, and children or infants.


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Haliphron
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20 Feb 2009, 9:14 pm

Honestly, I was so infuriated by merrymadscientist that I countered here extremism with extremism in the opposite direction. NO innocent person should be treated as property-child or adult, male or female. However, I DO NOT believe that parents who harm their children intentionally should be shown mercy by the penal system. It isnt like post-partum depression is untreatable and women suffering from it have the personal responsibility to GET PSYCHIATRIC HELP(or if the people around such a woman suspect it) and if they act on their homicidal impulses they should face a justice system without sympathy for them.

DentArthurDent wrote:
PND is acute and occurs only when birthing. In other words a mother commiting this kind of infanticide is NOT a danger to society, and instead of our vengeance and hate should be shown care and support to help her recover from this traumatic event.


Im sorry DentArthurDent, it isnt about her being a danger to society it is about PUNISHING her for such a cowardly, merciless act! Im appauled that you believe in showing mercy to those who lack such a quality themselves. Suppose I advocated showing compassion to men who kill their ex-wives out of jealousy because they didnt want to end the marriage? Would you agree to that? :roll:



DentArthurDent
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21 Feb 2009, 1:32 am

Haliphron wrote:

Im sorry DentArthurDent, it isnt about her being a danger to society it is about PUNISHING her for such a cowardly, merciless act! Im appauled that you believe in showing mercy to those who lack such a quality themselves.


That is because you associate this act from your own perspective and what would it take for you to commit such an act, you are failing to see there are any causes other than complete the presence of evil and in doing so are displaying a complete lack of knowledge on the subject. These people have in general a transient mental sickness, once this has gone I suspect that they will live in anguish for the rest of their lives so yes I believe we should help them with compassion.

I should clarify that I do not see all cases of this act as Infanticide. Each case must be investigated and treated upon the individual circumstances. I am sure that some will be revealed to be just plain murder without any extenuation circumstances, whilst some will be tragic cases of illness overcoming maternal instinct, these are the people that require our care and compassion

I to am appalled; at your vengeful nature and your foul attitude towards women in general.


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Haliphron
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21 Feb 2009, 4:00 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
Haliphron wrote:

Im sorry DentArthurDent, it isnt about her being a danger to society it is about PUNISHING her for such a cowardly, merciless act! Im appauled that you believe in showing mercy to those who lack such a quality themselves.


That is because you associate this act from your own perspective and what would it take for you to commit such an act, you are failing to see there are any causes other than complete the presence of evil and in doing so are displaying a complete lack of knowledge on the subject. These people have in general a transient mental sickness, once this has gone I suspect that they will live in anguish for the rest of their lives so yes I believe we should help them with compassion.

I should clarify that I do not see all cases of this act as Infanticide. Each case must be investigated and treated upon the individual circumstances. I am sure that some will be revealed to be just plain murder without any extenuation circumstances, whilst some will be tragic cases of illness overcoming maternal instinct, these are the people that require our care and compassion

I to am appalled; at your vengeful nature and your foul attitude towards women in general.




I realize that they have a transient mental illness and yet I STILL refuse to have sympathy for ANYONE who would do this to their own children intentionally. By refusing compassion to parents who willfully kill their children we send a clear message to mothers out there who have such intentions/impulses that they are responsible for getting help and if they act on these impulses they will face stiff consequences. And no, I am NOT lashing out specifically at women here! Fathers who do such things should face equally tough penalties as well.

I admit to my overreacting to the statement made by merrymadscientist and wrongfully suggesting that women should be denied their personal freedom but when it comes to the life of another person who in this case is BORN but is still helpless and defenseless their personal freedom ENDS.



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21 Feb 2009, 7:03 am

My grandmother's fourth son died soon after he was born and my grandmother sank into a postpartum depression. She killed herself by drinking Drano. I don't think that proves or disproves anything political. It's just tragic.

And it's sad to have a thread that tries to make some kind of point about feminism by using postpartum depression as an example. Most women who kill their children in western societies most likely have severe mental illness, not terminal feminism.

Z



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21 Feb 2009, 9:47 am

Zonder wrote:
My grandmother's fourth son died soon after he was born and my grandmother sank into a postpartum depression. She killed herself by drinking Drano. I don't think that proves or disproves anything political. It's just tragic.

And it's sad to have a thread that tries to make some kind of point about feminism by using postpartum depression as an example. Most women who kill their children in western societies most likely have severe mental illness, not terminal feminism.

Z



In agreement topic

:( I cannot imagine such a horrible pain.


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21 Feb 2009, 9:56 am

Quote:
For a woman who kills her own child I feel only an intense sympathy - to do that she must be suffering so much


I would sympathize more with the child who was psychotically destroyed, completely helpless. After the murder, I would arrest Mommy and give her a bright orange jumpsuit to wear, take her to court, convict her, then march her sorry ass off to jail.



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21 Feb 2009, 12:22 pm

Zonder wrote:
My grandmother's fourth son died soon after he was born and my grandmother sank into a postpartum depression. She killed herself by drinking Drano. I don't think that proves or disproves anything political. It's just tragic.

And it's sad to have a thread that tries to make some kind of point about feminism by using postpartum depression as an example. Most women who kill their children in western societies most likely have severe mental illness, not terminal feminism.

Z


I agree.



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21 Feb 2009, 12:27 pm

Haliphron wrote:
Zonder wrote:
My grandmother's fourth son died soon after he was born and my grandmother sank into a postpartum depression. She killed herself by drinking Drano. I don't think that proves or disproves anything political. It's just tragic.

And it's sad to have a thread that tries to make some kind of point about feminism by using postpartum depression as an example. Most women who kill their children in western societies most likely have severe mental illness, not terminal feminism.

Z


I agree.


If the end result is infantcide, none of this matters. I'm concerned only with the end result.

What jury would be sympathetic if the father had killed the child? WHat defense lawywer could convince a courtoom of a man's biological helpnessness?