Page 1 of 3 [ 44 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

Perambulator
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 9 Feb 2008
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 312

24 Feb 2009, 12:52 pm

I've been thinking about it and in my analysis this serious recession or depression we're now experiencing is not the result of capitalism which has been re-embraced in the past few decades. We had a serious recession when social welfare was embraced in the preceding decades.

For a while when we re-embraced the free market to a glorious extent we had a lot of good news. The Soviet Union was over and thus the cold war was finished. A period of history that was costly to many countries was over. But because totalitarian communism still exists in a few other countries that have nuclear bombs and because Israel and Muslims are squabbling and Israel has a nuclear bomb, and Iran has the capacity to build one we're now having another serious recession.

In a world in which there was no fear of war we could easily get rid of all our nuclear bombs which are very expensive to maintain. Furthermore eventually when the fear of nuclear war had receded people would begin to fear war in any form far less. Thus a gradual process of demilitarisation could be enacted.

Now, when you consider that the United States of America, the granddaddy of capitalism, its great defender and protector, spends half of its collected taxes on the American military you can see why war is bad! If there was no fear of war in the world, then America could halve its taxes. In effect that would mean the fortunes spent on nuclear bombs, military aeroplanes and ships, helicopters and artillery could be returned back to the hands of the people.

When that happens that will be real democracy. That will be a real boom era. Business and enterprise will thrive like never before. Ideas and innovation will flourish. With lower taxes more people will be employed and more employed people will get a decent wage and have more choices of how to spend their money - with more products and services available. War is a terrible thing. Conflict is good, conflict is healthy. But organised violence on a mass scale, i. e. war, is a stupid, costly business.

In my opinion capitalist democracy is the only system that works. But it'll never be what it wants to be until war is over and armies are disbanded. Until then the nations of the world have no choice but to have big governments which by their nature are proven to be authoritarian and unresponsive to the real needs of citizens, even the ones that claim to be paragons of democracy.

Who agrees with me? And does anyone have any idea of how we achieve a world without war?



Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 94
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

24 Feb 2009, 2:25 pm

Wars are basically caused by nations resisting the demands of other nations. When you can persuade all wealth in the world to be equally divided then no one would have anything more than anybody else. Of course knowledge and intelligence must also be equally divided. Then, in a world of equals it is unlikely war will occur.



MrMisanthrope
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 340
Location: The Eastern Outskirts of the Daley Empire

24 Feb 2009, 2:32 pm

Sorry. If there's one thing that Tyrants have and continue to teach us is that there comes a time to stop talking and just start dropping bombs.

Unless you think the Shoah was a good idea?

Peace is a purely theoretical state of affairs whose existence we deduce because there has been intervals between wars.

War is the Zero State of Humanity. Everything else is a temporary abberation. There is, has been and will be a war going on somewhere 99.999% of the time.

There will always be war because there will always be bullies that want to hurt you and steal from you... and on a national scale that means war.

Could there be less of it? Sure. But you will never get rid of it.


_________________
Malum Prohibitum, Malum Habenae Regum Est.
I'm not Jesus. Stop punishing me for other people's sins.

True Liberty Expressed as Fiction: http://www.bigheadpress.com/tpbtgn


ascan
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,194
Location: Taunton/Aberdeen

24 Feb 2009, 3:29 pm

MrMisanthrope wrote:
War is the Zero State of Humanity. Everything else is a temporary abberation. There is, has been and will be a war going on somewhere 99.999% of the time...

Yes, in an overpopulated world, that's somewhere near the truth.



AspE
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,114

24 Feb 2009, 4:03 pm

I would argue that the existence of nuclear weapons (which are far cheaper than conventional weapons of equivalent power) are what make the fear of war so great that few will attempt it. Fear will bring peace, there is no other way, given the fact that humans are violent. The only way around that is to bio-engineer humans so they aren't violent, otherwise someone will always be out there who wants to use violence to achieve their goals. The problem is the human mind, not nukes.



MrMisanthrope
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 340
Location: The Eastern Outskirts of the Daley Empire

24 Feb 2009, 4:07 pm

Larry Niven wrote in his "Man-Kzin War" series that "The reason Humanity (in his future world) abandoned War was because (only because) they were very, very good at it."

Nuclear weapons are part of that equasion, but as long as we have Supreme Leaders with Devoted Followers willing to die for them we will continue to have wars... even if only "undeclared" ones promulgated by people willing to create as much destabilization as possible in order to put their people in charge...


_________________
Malum Prohibitum, Malum Habenae Regum Est.
I'm not Jesus. Stop punishing me for other people's sins.

True Liberty Expressed as Fiction: http://www.bigheadpress.com/tpbtgn


ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 84
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

24 Feb 2009, 4:12 pm

A nice sentiment. But there will never be a world without war. The only thing we can hope for is that war does not lead to our extermination. Prior to nuclear weapons this was a forgone conclusion. Now it is not so certain.

ruveyn



Pixel8
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Age: 54
Gender: Male
Posts: 257
Location: Bristol, UK

24 Feb 2009, 4:16 pm

Ironically the greatest anti war movement started in the trenches of ww1, namely the Dada movement, basically punk rock which grew into the Surrealist movement, the quest for an alternative sur-reality, where the logical thought processes that underpin the war machine and its societies were dismantled. Bear in mind this was all done by seasoned trench hardened troops who'd had enough of the God King and Country garbage. (Sorry if this offends any still clinging to childish notion that might = right and my mums apple pie is the best in the world. patriotism is the basist form of ego and should be villified as such.) Ironically it was the American and British armies testing of LSD on troops that sparked the Hippie movement that halted the Vietnam war. The powers that be have been waging a black properganda campaign against the movement ever since, despite its now justified claims that there was going to be disaster if we didnt start looking after the planet and loving each other.
Basically the peace movement is still alive and kicking, heres a few examples of one very organised part of that process:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1ABEX7x4do&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaAUxqDF ... re=related
EarthDance Global Prayer For Peace (short)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIC5T22-MDg
Earthdance documentary (long)


_________________
Truth is our sword, lies are our shield.
Our enemy is the shadow we cast ourselves.
Harmony between opposites.


MrMisanthrope
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 340
Location: The Eastern Outskirts of the Daley Empire

24 Feb 2009, 4:24 pm

Pixel8 wrote:
...Basically the peace movement is still alive and kicking, ...

I'll feel good about a "peace movement" when they get Theocratic Bullies to stop blowing themselves up/throwing petrol/acid in the face of women - with the expressed or implied approval of their "governments" - simply because theose same women had the audacity to want to be selfdeterminative...


_________________
Malum Prohibitum, Malum Habenae Regum Est.
I'm not Jesus. Stop punishing me for other people's sins.

True Liberty Expressed as Fiction: http://www.bigheadpress.com/tpbtgn


ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 84
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

24 Feb 2009, 4:25 pm

Pixel8 wrote:
Ironically the greatest anti war movement started in the trenches of ww1,


During the Great War there were instances of both sides reaching an informal truce where they simply stopped killing each other. This kind of stand-down infuriated the officers of both sides and they took to rotating their troops to break up any such informal arrangement with the other side. This kind of thing also happened during the American Civil War. Yankees would trade decent food for good Southron tobacco leaf during the lull periods between battles. This sort of thing stopped afte Grant initiated a period of constant battle from the middle of 1864 all the way down to the stalemate and Petersburg in 1865. It was only after Sherman completed his march through Georgia and then onto South Carolina that the thing ended. So the last year of the war there were few opportunities for Billy Yank and Johnny Reb to stand down.

ruveyn



Pixel8
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Age: 54
Gender: Male
Posts: 257
Location: Bristol, UK

24 Feb 2009, 7:26 pm

MrMisanthrope, the demonisation of women is just the tip of the iceburg. the very concept that the female is dark, evil and inferior is the issue here, a lie spread by male dominator religions.
truth is not only this planet but the universal source of being is female, male is merely a tool to get the job done. But i've been flamed in pm already today for starting a thread about Gaia, guess i'll just say Bella Donna.

ruveyn, you are spot on, the guys that are in the trenches etc soon realise the insanity of war but are powerless to stop it, even sugesting that your enemy is like yourself is considered treason. In uk army the officer that ordered the troops to go "over the top" caried only a pistol, not to shoot the enemy but to shoot anyone who lost their bottle and ran away from certain death. it stinks and for all eternity it will continue to stink. the powermongering scum that caused it all didnt as much as lift a finger. in the words of Stan Lee "Nuff said".


_________________
Truth is our sword, lies are our shield.
Our enemy is the shadow we cast ourselves.
Harmony between opposites.


Roxas_XIII
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Jan 2007
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,217
Location: Laramie, WY

24 Feb 2009, 7:34 pm

Perambulator wrote:
I've been thinking about it and in my analysis this serious recession or depression we're now experiencing is not the result of capitalism which has been re-embraced in the past few decades. We had a serious recession when social welfare was embraced in the preceding decades.

For a while when we re-embraced the free market to a glorious extent we had a lot of good news. The Soviet Union was over and thus the cold war was finished. A period of history that was costly to many countries was over. But because totalitarian communism still exists in a few other countries that have nuclear bombs and because Israel and Muslims are squabbling and Israel has a nuclear bomb, and Iran has the capacity to build one we're now having another serious recession.

In a world in which there was no fear of war we could easily get rid of all our nuclear bombs which are very expensive to maintain. Furthermore eventually when the fear of nuclear war had receded people would begin to fear war in any form far less. Thus a gradual process of demilitarisation could be enacted.

Now, when you consider that the United States of America, the granddaddy of capitalism, its great defender and protector, spends half of its collected taxes on the American military you can see why war is bad! If there was no fear of war in the world, then America could halve its taxes. In effect that would mean the fortunes spent on nuclear bombs, military aeroplanes and ships, helicopters and artillery could be returned back to the hands of the people.

When that happens that will be real democracy. That will be a real boom era. Business and enterprise will thrive like never before. Ideas and innovation will flourish. With lower taxes more people will be employed and more employed people will get a decent wage and have more choices of how to spend their money - with more products and services available. War is a terrible thing. Conflict is good, conflict is healthy. But organised violence on a mass scale, i. e. war, is a stupid, costly business.

In my opinion capitalist democracy is the only system that works. But it'll never be what it wants to be until war is over and armies are disbanded. Until then the nations of the world have no choice but to have big governments which by their nature are proven to be authoritarian and unresponsive to the real needs of citizens, even the ones that claim to be paragons of democracy.

Who agrees with me? And does anyone have any idea of how we achieve a world without war?


I totally agree, but good luck going against human nature.


_________________
"Yeah, so this one time, I tried playing poker with tarot cards... got a full house, and about four people died." ~ Unknown comedian

Happy New Year from WP's resident fortune-teller! May the cards be ever in your favor.


Pixel8
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Age: 54
Gender: Male
Posts: 257
Location: Bristol, UK

24 Feb 2009, 8:04 pm

purambulator wrote:
Who agrees with me? And does anyone have any idea of how we achieve a world without war?

Agree to a large degree.
I would say however that Armagedon is inevitable and according to the book of revelation there will be 1K years of peace afterwards. I'm personally looking towards the Apocholypse (lifting of the veil) in 2012. Anyone whos taken acid has said "wow imagine if the whole world took it at the same time" well maybe this coming transition will put LSD in perspective. BIG shift in conciousness. Akin to round Earth or WE revolve around the Sun not it around us.
Maybe then we will finally be able to coexist without ego driven conflict.


_________________
Truth is our sword, lies are our shield.
Our enemy is the shadow we cast ourselves.
Harmony between opposites.


Last edited by Pixel8 on 24 Feb 2009, 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MrMisanthrope
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 340
Location: The Eastern Outskirts of the Daley Empire

24 Feb 2009, 8:12 pm

Meh. You are looking forward to Armageddon for all the wrong reasons Pixel8...

Me? I wanna kill some Frost Giants! Ragnarok & Roll baby! :twisted:


_________________
Malum Prohibitum, Malum Habenae Regum Est.
I'm not Jesus. Stop punishing me for other people's sins.

True Liberty Expressed as Fiction: http://www.bigheadpress.com/tpbtgn


Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 94
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

24 Feb 2009, 11:51 pm

Roxas_XIII wrote:
Perambulator wrote:
I've been thinking about it and in my analysis this serious recession or depression we're now experiencing is not the result of capitalism which has been re-embraced in the past few decades. We had a serious recession when social welfare was embraced in the preceding decades.

For a while when we re-embraced the free market to a glorious extent we had a lot of good news. The Soviet Union was over and thus the cold war was finished. A period of history that was costly to many countries was over. But because totalitarian communism still exists in a few other countries that have nuclear bombs and because Israel and Muslims are squabbling and Israel has a nuclear bomb, and Iran has the capacity to build one we're now having another serious recession.

In a world in which there was no fear of war we could easily get rid of all our nuclear bombs which are very expensive to maintain. Furthermore eventually when the fear of nuclear war had receded people would begin to fear war in any form far less. Thus a gradual process of demilitarisation could be enacted.

Now, when you consider that the United States of America, the granddaddy of capitalism, its great defender and protector, spends half of its collected taxes on the American military you can see why war is bad! If there was no fear of war in the world, then America could halve its taxes. In effect that would mean the fortunes spent on nuclear bombs, military aeroplanes and ships, helicopters and artillery could be returned back to the hands of the people.

When that happens that will be real democracy. That will be a real boom era. Business and enterprise will thrive like never before. Ideas and innovation will flourish. With lower taxes more people will be employed and more employed people will get a decent wage and have more choices of how to spend their money - with more products and services available. War is a terrible thing. Conflict is good, conflict is healthy. But organised violence on a mass scale, i. e. war, is a stupid, costly business.

In my opinion capitalist democracy is the only system that works. But it'll never be what it wants to be until war is over and armies are disbanded. Until then the nations of the world have no choice but to have big governments which by their nature are proven to be authoritarian and unresponsive to the real needs of citizens, even the ones that claim to be paragons of democracy.

Who agrees with me? And does anyone have any idea of how we achieve a world without war?


I totally agree, but good luck going against human nature.


For a detailed analysis of the nature of finance capitalism and the problems it initiates see http://www.counterpunch.org/hudson02232009.html



jrknothead
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Aug 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,423

25 Feb 2009, 1:53 am

Since we're asking for impossible stuff, can I have a world without parking meters? Or even better, can I have a world without my girlfriend doesn't turn into a raving lunatic for two weeks out of every month? Or how about a world where the girlfriend I just mentioned was actually real?













No wait, I want cheeseburger world, where everything is made of cheeseburgers. Yep, cheeseburger world. Give me that world.