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Haliphron
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11 May 2009, 6:26 pm

I eagerly await the time when there is a species more intelligent and more complex than humans that PREYS on humans. I personally believe that those who wantonly harm animals(and ANYONE who harms cats for ANY reason) are lower down on the food chain than I am and that I have the right to harm such people



Magnus
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11 May 2009, 7:16 pm

Anthropologists believe that our teeth were designed to eat seeds. We spent most of our evolutionary days in the savanna. If you compare our teeth to gorillas (who are predominately vegetarians with the exception of the occasional bug) their teeth are enormously more vicious.
Also, we can't really run very fast in comparison to prey animals so it doesn't seem like we were made to prey on them. Even saying that we were made to do anything insinuates that some god made us as such. We can eat whatever we want to eat. It's actually healthier not to eat flesh.

Their incisors are designed to rip apart bark and maybe to protect themselves. Males have much larger teeth than the females. I doubt they are like that because they eat differently, but rather that they are used to intimidate other males.

Image


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twoshots
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11 May 2009, 8:28 pm

Gorilla jaws are larger too. The obvious conclusion is that modern humans are highly adapted to eating ground beef; if you don't think that human mouths and dentition have evolved for eating meat, have a look at Sand's link on the previous page.

Anyway, no matter that people seem very unimpressive predators, it is noteworthy that extensive tool usage goes as far back as habilis when "people" were markedly different anatomically. Whenever we took up extensive meat eating, we were technologically entirely capable of doing so (spears and cooking go back as far as H. erectus); you can't talk about people's bodies in the absence of their technology. The two are completely inextricable at this point.


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phil777
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11 May 2009, 9:47 pm

Hrmph.

Magnus, Gorillas are also vegetarian because their stomach is made for that activity (hence their big bellies...that's not fat, it's their insides <.< ), they spend whole days standing near a tree and just eating leaves. Bug eating is mostly reserved to smaller animals (chimps and the likes) because it's more energetic for their small bodies, unless they can catch a lot (such as monkeys going ant fishing).

Also, about the incisors, it's been noticed that asian people have retained a "spatula" shape which is often seen on their incisors.

And yep, wisdom teeth don't have the place to fit, our jaw used to be a bit more projected forward in ancient times. Molars are used as Sand said, for crushing and grinding =/. And as anna said, we do have the same dental formula, i think most Old World Monkeys do. (What sets them apart from those before them was the reduction of the formula to 2 pre-molars, down from 3 i think...)



Magnus
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12 May 2009, 6:39 am

When people eat, their jaws don't go up and down like a typical predator. Look at how the carnivores eat. Tigers have sharp teeth and they have a strict up and down motion when they chew. Even dogs who are omnivores chew in the same fashion. People chew more like cows.
We don't just gulp and swallow. We have to mull on it.

Besides, if we were supposed to be predators then why don't we have claws? Why can't we run fast like the other carnivores? People are pretty bad fighters too unless they spend years of training to learn how to do it. We aren't naturally brutal creatures.

Most primates are predominately vegetarian. We are not specialized animals when it comes to eating habits. We can eat whatever we want to eat.

Twoshots, you said that we can't talk about our dietary habits without including our technological advances. We are now technologically capable of not having to eat meat for our survival. In fact, it's causing more harm than good especially if you look at the environmental destruction caused by factory farming and clear cutting the forests for cattle grazing.


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Last edited by Magnus on 12 May 2009, 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sand
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12 May 2009, 6:46 am

Magnus wrote:
When people eat, their jaws don't go up and down like a typical predator. Look at how the carnivores eat. Tigers have sharp teeth and they have a strict up and down motion when they chew. Even dogs who are omnivores chew in the same fashion. People chew more like cows.
We don't just gulp and swallow. We have to mull on it.

Besides, if we were supposed to be predators (that doesn't even make sense) but let's just assume that all animals are made to adhere to the food chain, :roll: ...Why don't we have claws? Why can't we run fast like the other carnivores? People are pretty bad fighters too unless they spend years of training to learn how to do it. We aren't naturally brutal creatures.

Most primates are predominately vegetarian. We are not specialized animals when it comes to eating habits. We can eat whatever we want to eat.


To refuse to acknowledge that hunting and killing for food is a basic component of human development is a major ignorance. American Indians used the buffalo as a major part of their food supply and one of the reasons for the enthusiasm for killing buffalo was to deprive Indians of food.



Magnus
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12 May 2009, 6:49 am

Sand, it wasn't necessary for the people back then to do those things. It was how history went, but it could have turned out many other ways. Don't you think that it would have been more ethical if all that killing and maiming didn't take place? Who knows how things would have turned out if the Native Americans weren't wiped out like they were. It didn't have to happen that way. It doesn't have to continue to be like that either.


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Sand
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12 May 2009, 7:09 am

Magnus wrote:
Sand, it wasn't necessary for the people back then to do those things. It was how history went, but it could have turned out many other ways. Don't you think that it would have been more ethical if all that killing and maiming didn't take place? Who knows how things would have turned out if the Native Americans weren't wiped out like they were. It didn't have to happen that way. It doesn't have to continue to be like that either.


It's an interesting viewpoint. As one who does not eat meat and treats animals from ants to squirrels to pigeons to ducks to seagulls ad almost infinitum as equal residents of the planet I would be delighted to know how you see to it the planet operates in the manner you prefer. I do what I can for my fellow creatures and am threatened almost daily by people who seem to hate other species.



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12 May 2009, 10:18 am

i like animals, i like meat, i like humans, i like nature: nature is animals, meat, humans, death, torture, pollution and pain.

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twoshots
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12 May 2009, 11:41 am

Magnus wrote:
When people eat, their jaws don't go up and down like a typical predator. Look at how the carnivores eat. Tigers have sharp teeth and they have a strict up and down motion when they chew. Even dogs who are omnivores chew in the same fashion. People chew more like cows.
We don't just gulp and swallow. We have to mull on it.

Besides, if we were supposed to be predators then why don't we have claws? Why can't we run fast like the other carnivores? People are pretty bad fighters too unless they spend years of training to learn how to do it. We aren't naturally brutal creatures.

Again, tools and brains. Even Chimps snack on colobus monkey, and have been observed fashioning primitive spears to skewer bush babies. We never needed any of that bio-equipment because for millions of years our ginormous brains have allowed us to do otherwise.


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12 May 2009, 4:08 pm

Sand wrote:
It's an interesting viewpoint. As one who does not eat meat and treats animals from ants to squirrels to pigeons to ducks to seagulls ad almost infinitum as equal residents of the planet ... I do what I can for my fellow creatures and am threatened almost daily by people who seem to hate other species.


^^ I believe very much the same, Sand.^^ Thank you very much for your replies everyone, this has become a very interesting discussion indeed. Magnus, I would wish to your reply concerning humans not being not supposing to be predators. Perhaps this is the same as hunting. Considering purely capabilities and not morality and what is perhaps right for all life, I believe humans are very capable of hunting. They may not possess claws or run fast. Yet, humans have the ability to creating tools for their claws, such as spears, bows and arrows and such. Also, the ability to communicate precisely as a pack (similarly to the way in which many wolf packs enjoy hunting) is what allows humans to be successful hunting. I believe whether humans were supposed to do this or not, humans are certainly capable in a solely human pack. ^^ Oh dear, I see twoshots has also mentioned this, and I thus agree.



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12 May 2009, 9:56 pm

Haliphron wrote:
I eagerly await the time when there is a species more intelligent and more complex than humans that PREYS on humans. I personally believe that those who wantonly harm animals(and ANYONE who harms cats for ANY reason) are lower down on the food chain than I am and that I have the right to harm such people

Wait, aren't cats food?


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Tomasu
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13 May 2009, 12:06 pm

greenblue wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
I eagerly await the time when there is a species more intelligent and more complex than humans that PREYS on humans. I personally believe that those who wantonly harm animals(and ANYONE who harms cats for ANY reason) are lower down on the food chain than I am and that I have the right to harm such people

Wait, aren't cats food?


An item (or individual) is food for an individual of an individual eats that item (or individual). I am confused by your question. v.v Poor kitties. I do hope you do not eat kitties.



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19 May 2009, 2:36 pm

I'm also for animals rights.


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19 May 2009, 2:42 pm

Shadowgirl wrote:
I'm also for animals rights.


Yes but do you think they should have the right to go to heaven too or is that place elitist and a human only club? :wink:


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20 May 2009, 10:17 am

Magnus wrote:
Sand, it wasn't necessary for the people back then to do those things. It was how history went, but it could have turned out many other ways. Don't you think that it would have been more ethical if all that killing and maiming didn't take place? Who knows how things would have turned out if the Native Americans weren't wiped out like they were. It didn't have to happen that way. It doesn't have to continue to be like that either.


The readiest supply of protein is animal flesh. Grain eating did not become practical until humans learned how to grow grain to order and the agricultural mode of existence took hold. Even now, meat is the best source of protein for the human diet. We can substitute a combination of brains and legumes, but more of them must be consumed.

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