abortion terminology

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Orwell
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19 May 2009, 3:00 am

ed wrote:

You care so much for the fetus, but you don't give a damn about the mother.

That is completely unfair. The pro-life conclusions follow from its premises. If you believe a fetus to be human, then the fetus should be protected. From the pro-life perspective, abortion is literally murder as you are ending a human life in cold blood. That doesn't mean not caring about the mother, it means being anti-murder.

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Sand
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19 May 2009, 3:31 am

Orwell wrote:

ed wrote:

You care so much for the fetus, but you don't give a damn about the mother.

The basic problem resolves about the unsolvable dilemma of choice in the disposal of the lives of mother and child and who should make that decision. There are innumerable decisions in which human life is at stake in medical, military, legal, police, and economic situations and a huge number of them do not hold human life as the most important factor. The intense focus on abortion is primarily religious and, in my opinion, is overemphasized. But basically it is an unsolvable dilemma.

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19 May 2009, 6:01 am

Chibi_Neko wrote:

What is it that you think then?

That the unborn are human and should be treated as such.

Quote:

I really want to know because from the last abortion debate thread I have learned that you think that it's fine for everyone to have unwanted babies... as long as it's not you.

That's not what I think. Now I'm curious -- what made you think that?

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Ancalagon
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19 May 2009, 6:04 am

Sand wrote:

There are innumerable decisions in which human life is at stake in medical, military, legal, police, and economic situations and a huge number of them do not hold human life as the most important factor.

I think the situations you're referencing tend to balance out human life against human life, which complicates things.

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ed
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19 May 2009, 6:09 am

OK, a hypothetical question... assume abortion becomes illegal, and a woman goes to her doctor, and requests and gets an abortion. What punishments do you believe should be applied? To whom? Please try to be specific.

Sand
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19 May 2009, 6:12 am

Ancalagon wrote:

Sand wrote:

I think the situations you're referencing tend to balance out human life against human life, which complicates things.

No. Many decisions on medications and military strategy and just plain profit making may hold human life in balance without other human life being in the balance.

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19 May 2009, 9:06 am

Sand wrote:

Ancalagon wrote:

Sand wrote:

I think the situations you're referencing tend to balance out human life against human life, which complicates things.

No. Many decisions on medications and military strategy and just plain profit making may hold human life in balance without other human life being in the balance.

My father, in working as an aerospace engineer (he helps design the engines) is involved in safety decisions that balance life against money. He has had to work with people who have blocked basic safety measures because they would cost too much, and because of those people, airplanes went into the air as death traps.

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19 May 2009, 11:23 am

Ancalagon wrote:

That's not what I think. Now I'm curious -- what made you think that?

From the last abortion debate. I asked if you would take in the babies that you wanted the mothers to have... but they did not. Your first response was that you did not have the resource to care for those children. What makes you think the mother did? I kept implying that you should not expect a mother to have a child that she doesn't want if you are not willing to take a baby in on short notice... you never did give any straight response, which told me that as long as the unwanted child did not come to you.... you are ok with everyone else having them.

The adoption system is clogged enough, there are more unwanted kids then there are registered people to adopt, which means most of these kids will be passed around to foster home to foster home.

Education, better access to contraceptives, and removal of religious persecution will decrease the need for abortions. Pro-lifers should be focused on that rather then imposing their views on women that need help and taking their choices away. The people that march with signs displaying the virgin mary really get on my nerves because religion has no place in abortion debates in countries where religion and state are separate.

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ed
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19 May 2009, 11:29 am

ed wrote:

I see none of you "pro-life" people have answered my question. I think you're all afraid to answer it.

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19 May 2009, 11:53 am

ed wrote:

I see none of you "pro-life" people have answered my question. I think you're all afraid to answer it.

Why do they even have to answer the question of what kind of punishment should be applied?

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19 May 2009, 12:08 pm

McTell wrote:

ed wrote:

I see none of you "pro-life" people have answered my question. I think you're all afraid to answer it.

Why do they even have to answer the question of what kind of punishment should be applied?

Because they claim they don't favor putting the woman in prison.

If you make something illegal, you must also set the penalties for breaking the law. That should be obvious. A law that has no penalty for violating it is a law that is totally useless.

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19 May 2009, 12:25 pm

claire333 wrote:

I see I have been missing an interesting conversation.

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Another part of it is their interpretation of abortion in more neutral moral terms, as noted with the acronym SLED(Size, Level of Development, Environment, Dependency):
1. Size or Physical Appearance
2. Level of Development
3. Environment
4. Degree of Dependency

I cannot say I can argue with any of these. I find the ones of Size and Level of Development to be the most interesting because it seems women who kill their infants are viewed differently than the ones who kill their ten year olds. People who kill children are viewed differently than those who kill adults.

Well, the issue is probably just one of social positioning there with the children vs adults thing. I mean, people who kill nuns are likely considered worse than people who kill inner city blacks, but both are equally human.(well, except if you are an extreme Protestant, but even then it is possible as most of those are found in the south)

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19 May 2009, 12:31 pm

ed wrote:

I genuinely don't know what the penalty of law should be for bank robbery. I have absolutely no idea. Does this mean that I cannot say that bank robbery should be illegal?

I believe I can say that I think bank robbery should be illegal. I don't have to then go on and say what I feel the penalty should be, in order to prove it should be illegal.

If you were talking to lawmakers in this thread, then I think it would be fair to demand of them a penalty, but you're not.

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19 May 2009, 4:31 pm

ed wrote:

How can you expect me to be specific about such a generic scenario? How old is the woman? Does she have any health problems or medical issues? What did the doctor tell her? At what stage of development is the fetus? Was she raped? Was she coerced into it by someone else? Was it an ectopic pregnancy? Were there other medical complications in the pregnancy?

Let me ask you a question -- what should the punishment be for attempted suicide? Should the person making the attempt be punished? Helped?

Quote:

I see none of you "pro-life" people have answered my question. I think you're all afraid to answer it.

If you leave people only a couple of hours to respond to something like this, you should probably expect not to get an answer fast enough for your taste.

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Ancalagon
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19 May 2009, 4:57 pm

Chibi_Neko wrote:

Your question never did make sense. The situations you were comparing were not similar.

Quote:

The adoption system is clogged enough, there are more unwanted kids then there are registered people to adopt, which means most of these kids will be passed around to foster home to foster home

This is a situation that doesn't get as much attention as it needs.

I notice that you didn't suggest killing off all of the excess unwanted kids in the adoption system. That's a good thing, but doesn't that kind of undermine the argument for abortion on the grounds that it keeps the number of unwanted kids down?

Quote:

The people that march with signs displaying the virgin mary really get on my nerves because religion has no place in abortion debates in countries where religion and state are separate.

You know what gets on my nerves? People who tell religious people to shut up, merely because they are religious.

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19 May 2009, 4:58 pm

Ancalagon wrote:

Let me ask you a question -- what should the punishment be for attempted suicide? Should the person making the attempt be punished? Helped?

That is a crime so heinous it deserves the death penalty.

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