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ed
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18 May 2009, 6:07 am

I've decided to change the names we use. From now on the two camps will be called "pro-putting-women-in-prison-for-having-an-abortion" and "anti-putting-women-in-prison-for-having-an-abortion." Removes all the ambiguity, and states the two positions exactly.



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18 May 2009, 9:36 am

Shadowgirl wrote:
Yeah like yours is any better. When life starts it starts and shouldn't be interfered with.

OK, I think most people agree that a human life should be protected. That's not where the point of contention is, Shadowgirl, and either you are being intellectually dishonest by misrepresenting your opponents, or you just haven't bothered to understand the issue at all. The relevant question is when it should be considered life, and several posters have already expressed an opinion that a developing fetus is not considered to be human life. Most people do not consider a newly fertilized egg to be a human life. Most people do consider a fetus 8.5 months into development to be a human life. So where exactly does life begin? You can't be so dismissive when you have no basis for your definition of "life" being more correct than anyone else's.


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18 May 2009, 10:13 am

Shadowgirl wrote:
To me abortion is murder and it should be counted as so.


In some cases, abortion is mandated in the Bible, so it cannot always be considered murder by Bible-believing people. If a woman commits adultery, or if she engaged and is raped and does not cry out, she is to be put to death. The Bible does not say to wait and see if she is pregnant so that she can deliver the child and have it adopted it out before stoning her ... God said simply kill her (along with any unborn fetus) to "put the evil away."

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Deuteronomy 22:

23 “If a young woman who is a virgin is betrothed to a husband, and a man finds her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry out in the city, and the man because he humbled his neighbor’s wife; so you shall put away the evil from among you.
25 “But if a man finds a betrothed young woman in the countryside, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. 26 But you shall do nothing to the young woman; there is in the young woman no sin deserving of death, for just as when a man rises against his neighbor and kills him, even so is this matter. 27 For he found her in the countryside, and the betrothed young woman cried out, but there was no one to save her.


Note also: virgin women who are raped must marry their rapist (although the rapist must pay a bride-price).

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28 “If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.



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18 May 2009, 1:45 pm

"virgin women who are raped must marry their rapist (although the rapist must pay a bride-price). "

Oy...if only they'd enforce that XD That'd be worse than going to jail imo. (But then you'd have to consider all the rich bastards that'd be tempted to do that hum....well, jail for them + the bride-price >=D ! )



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18 May 2009, 3:27 pm

ed wrote:
I've decided to change the names we use. From now on the two camps will be called "pro-putting-women-in-prison-for-having-an-abortion" and "anti-putting-women-in-prison-for-having-an-abortion." Removes all the ambiguity, and states the two positions exactly.

Most people on both sides of the abortion issue are on the anti-imprisonment side, so this doesn't resolve any ambiguity or state either side's position.


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18 May 2009, 3:41 pm

Ancalagon wrote:
ed wrote:
I've decided to change the names we use. From now on the two camps will be called "pro-putting-women-in-prison-for-having-an-abortion" and "anti-putting-women-in-prison-for-having-an-abortion." Removes all the ambiguity, and states the two positions exactly.

Most people on both sides of the abortion issue are on the anti-imprisonment side, so this doesn't resolve any ambiguity or state either side's position.

I don't see much reason to care about the terms. Both sides are picking propaganda, and both sides can make a case for their position having it's name.

If you believe that these fetuses are people, then you are for their life. You don't want them to be killed/murdered/whatevered. If these fetuses aren't people, then you are for a woman's choice to abort, a relatively neutral act. If is absurd to a pro-lifer to call themselves by most other names because murder isn't something to debate about, and it is not a term to be reduced into something else.

The interesting thing about this matter is that there isn't much way to sensibly come to a compromise.



ed
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18 May 2009, 3:57 pm

Ancalagon wrote:
ed wrote:
I've decided to change the names we use. From now on the two camps will be called "pro-putting-women-in-prison-for-having-an-abortion" and "anti-putting-women-in-prison-for-having-an-abortion." Removes all the ambiguity, and states the two positions exactly.

Most people on both sides of the abortion issue are on the anti-imprisonment side, so this doesn't resolve any ambiguity or state either side's position.


So these anti-abortion laws won't have any penalties attached to them? If you get an abortion in a state that prohibits them, they will find you guilty and then just let you go?

I think you need to reassess the effects of abortion prohibition. Of course they will include putting women in prison. :D



ed
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18 May 2009, 4:10 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Ancalagon wrote:
ed wrote:
I've decided to change the names we use. From now on the two camps will be called "pro-putting-women-in-prison-for-having-an-abortion" and "anti-putting-women-in-prison-for-having-an-abortion." Removes all the ambiguity, and states the two positions exactly.

Most people on both sides of the abortion issue are on the anti-imprisonment side, so this doesn't resolve any ambiguity or state either side's position.

I don't see much reason to care about the terms. Both sides are picking propaganda, and both sides can make a case for their position having it's name.

If you believe that these fetuses are people, then you are for their life. You don't want them to be killed/murdered/whatevered. If these fetuses aren't people, then you are for a woman's choice to abort, a relatively neutral act. If is absurd to a pro-lifer to call themselves by most other names because murder isn't something to debate about, and it is not a term to be reduced into something else.

The interesting thing about this matter is that there isn't much way to sensibly come to a compromise.


If you believe that abortion is murder, then you obviously want the woman to go to prison, for life according to today's laws. You care so much for the fetus, but you don't give a damn about the mother.

There is a good practical compromise. I've been espousing it for years, and was delighted yesterday when President Obama advocated it at Notre Dame. You want to lower the number of abortions. I want to lower the number of abortions. What would be wrong with working together to make abortion unnecessary?

Or are you just committed to putting women in prison?



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18 May 2009, 4:19 pm

ed wrote:
If you believe that abortion is murder, then you obviously want the woman to go to prison, for life according to today's laws. You care so much for the fetus, but you don't give a damn about the mother.

There is a good practical compromise. I've been espousing it for years, and was delighted yesterday when President Obama advocated it at Notre Dame. You want to lower the number of abortions. I want to lower the number of abortions. What would be wrong with working together to make abortion unnecessary?

Or are you just committed to putting women in prison?

Working to make abortion unnecessary is not a terrible position at all for a person who is against abortion, but that still does not mean that legalization isn't a problem. It certainly isn't a compromise. If we just inserted "murder" for abortion, that would seem to end the argument, as there is little ability to compromise with extreme evil, and abortion is taken to be an extreme evil, on the level of murder.



ed
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18 May 2009, 4:55 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
ed wrote:
If you believe that abortion is murder, then you obviously want the woman to go to prison, for life according to today's laws. You care so much for the fetus, but you don't give a damn about the mother.

There is a good practical compromise. I've been espousing it for years, and was delighted yesterday when President Obama advocated it at Notre Dame. You want to lower the number of abortions. I want to lower the number of abortions. What would be wrong with working together to make abortion unnecessary?

Or are you just committed to putting women in prison?

Working to make abortion unnecessary is not a terrible position at all for a person who is against abortion, but that still does not mean that legalization isn't a problem. It certainly isn't a compromise. If we just inserted "murder" for abortion, that would seem to end the argument, as there is little ability to compromise with extreme evil, and abortion is taken to be an extreme evil, on the level of murder.


So yes, you are only interested in putting women in prison. :(



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18 May 2009, 7:34 pm

ed wrote:
Ancalagon wrote:
Most people on both sides of the abortion issue are on the anti-imprisonment side, so this doesn't resolve any ambiguity or state either side's position.


So these anti-abortion laws won't have any penalties attached to them? If you get an abortion in a state that prohibits them, they will find you guilty and then just let you go?

I think you need to reassess the effects of abortion prohibition. Of course they will include putting women in prison. :D

There are different penalties for different crimes -- and different penalties for different levels of involvement. Do you really thing the woman would bear the brunt of these theoretical penalties? Do you really think that a possibly desparate woman wouldn't get sympathy in a courtroom?

I could see doctors going to jail for breaking these hypothetical laws, rarely (if ever) the woman.


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18 May 2009, 8:01 pm

ed wrote:
So yes, you are only interested in putting women in prison. :(

Actually, I am not even interested, much less interested in doing anything.



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18 May 2009, 8:05 pm

ed wrote:
If you believe that abortion is murder, then you obviously want the woman to go to prison, for life according to today's laws.

I could call suicide self-murder, but that doesn't mean that attempted suicide should be punished by years in prison.

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You care so much for the fetus, but you don't give a damn about the mother.

Not true. Don't put words in my mouth. If you want to find out what I think, you won't find out by assuming the worst and not bothering to check if it's true or not.

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There is a good practical compromise. I've been espousing it for years, and was delighted yesterday when President Obama advocated it at Notre Dame. You want to lower the number of abortions. I want to lower the number of abortions. What would be wrong with working together to make abortion unnecessary?

It really is a great idea. I suspect the problem is that it's difficult to work with someone who thinks you are a deeply immoral person. This is the default view that each side has of the other.

I mean, all I've done so far is disagree with your position, and I've already been accused of not giving a damn about women.

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Or are you just committed to putting women in prison?

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

(Note to the sarcasm impaired -- this is meant ironically.)


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18 May 2009, 10:09 pm

Ancalagon wrote:
Not true. Don't put words in my mouth. If you want to find out what I think, you won't find out by assuming the worst and not bothering to check if it's true or not.


What is it that you think then?
I really want to know because from the last abortion debate thread I have learned that you think that it's fine for everyone to have unwanted babies... as long as it's not you.


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18 May 2009, 11:04 pm

I see I have been missing an interesting conversation.

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Another part of it is their interpretation of abortion in more neutral moral terms, as noted with the acronym SLED(Size, Level of Development, Environment, Dependency):
1. Size or Physical Appearance
2. Level of Development
3. Environment
4. Degree of Dependency
I cannot say I can argue with any of these. I find the ones of Size and Level of Development to be the most interesting because it seems women who kill their infants are viewed differently than the ones who kill their ten year olds. People who kill children are viewed differently than those who kill adults.