How can anyone believe that the world is 6,000 years old?

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you are missing the point science is A faith.. faith doesn't equal religion. faith=belief or opinion it is just commonly dumpd with religion but it isn't.

also science and religion came from the same desire to understand, therefore with out science we would not have religion and vice versa

This is the dictionary definition of faith:

1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction ; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>

Belief in something or which there is no proof That is the crucial difference between science and religion and science originated when a system of suppositions were proved. That did not take place in ancient times. If you do not understand and accept that you will never understand what science is all about.

ah but meaning is everything also belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true. from (wiki) and http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/belief also http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/belief/

you used one source to prove your point not very scientific is it?

I gave you the dictionary definition of faith. If you think it is something else than belief without proof I'd be glad to hear it. The same definition is in several dictionaries. How many would you require before you feel it has validity? The definition of a word is not a scientific inquiry.

Frankly, my contributions are not reaching you. I doubt anything I could say could make you think sincerely about the problem.

you cant apply terms to non-applicable concepts...

apple = fruit
orange = fruit

im gonna call apples oranges from now on.

faith is, by definition, the belief in non-proved concepts.

science is not faith, its about knowledge, not belief. thats the definition. you can re-define it all you like, but dont bring your personal re-definitions into a public debate.

ok...... Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth of or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing (again from wiki)

confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability. (from dictionary.com)

Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. (answers .com)

there are other meanings aswell but these are for the context that i am using also faith and belief are synomys for trust aswell as one another.

true, but you still have to use the words within their context.

belief is trust. theres a car parked outside, and you cannot see it. im telling you its red. you believe me. you cannot know for sure, but why would i lie?
thats belief. you have faith in my good intentions.

if you see the car, then you KNOW its red. thats knowledge, and no longer belief. mix up the two, and everything gets a bit weird OR religious.
"have you heard of the new green car he bought?"
"no! when did he buy that? i know for a FACT its green tho." <--- religious mindset
/
"look! aint it a beauty!" *plum red car*
"wow, what color is it?"
"dude.. its red, look."
"oh yes, i trust your judgement. i believe that the car is red." <---weird mindset

shakes head.... what I mean is that every one has a faith of somekind a faith ia thing or a systm or value... I am using it in context

also science is trying to find knollege.. right so you have to have faith in science because if you don't it wouldn't matter if you found anything because you wouldn't trust what you have found.... I'm not saying science and faith are the same but you need faith in lots of things including science...
I finnding it hard to express my thoughts on this subject.

lets say I think obama will make a good leader.. now thats is faith as i have express trust in him

or

I agree with stem cell treatment that is also faith as I have stated trust.

I hope puts my thouhts across... but if you don't like them... well.. you have right to criticise but I have a right to defend.

ounion I think you understand

Last edited by scorpileo on 25 May 2009, 10:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

Is that right?

I have never seen the planets Mercury, Jupiter, or Saturn. Nor do I "know" that the earth is round. Nor that it circles the sun. But I believe in these things. Am I being "weird or religious" in doing so?

.

Last edited by ouinon on 25 May 2009, 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

That may be so, but do not confuse your faith in scientific discovery with science. Science requires observation and proof.

poor examples, there are photos of saturn, way more photos of saturn than of... odin or hugin.
the sun is visible, and the seasons in the northern and southern hemisphere are PHYSICAL PROOF of both the orbit, and the angle of the earth, which also hints to the round-ness

horizons are curved.

humans have observed earth from space.

for all i know, you've never seen a tree in your life, and you could make a similar example about that :]

but THOSE EXAMPLES apart, yes you are right. as long as a concept remains without proof, then it is a belief, not a knowledge.

my car-example isnt the best in the universe either, but you get the jist, and i get yours ;]

So long as I do not obtain the proof myself, and see it with my own eyes, and touch it with my own hands, it will be faith/belief.

.

not necesarily. its about the collective... every religious person doesnt go around inventing all their own religions either, at some point information has to go from the observer to the public.

THE POINT IS
how this information is gathered, and how it is related to.

faith: is gathered from ones own vivid imagination. i IMAGINE that you must be right. and YES a scientist has FAITH in the good intentions of another scientist. he does NOT have faith in the research, cus he observes it, and sees it. he KNOWS the research.

knowledge/science: is gathered from observation.

its not very tricky

Last edited by ZEGH8578 on 25 May 2009, 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Precisely. It will be faith, not science.

It may be, but my own knowledge of Saturn for example is limited to words and pictures on paper. I believe that these things represent something out there in space. I have no "knowledge", as in direct observation/"proof", of it.

PS. What is "knowledge" by the way? Other than another one of those abstract words representing something for which there is no objective evidence/proof. Like "love", "truth", "justice", "good", "freedom", "god", and "success".

.

i guess thats the compromise. we have faith in the secondary sources of information.

this has nothing to do with science tho, and wether or not faith is a part of research or the scientific method.

another breakdown... :
to have faith: to have faith in secondary sources of information based in faith, which is in turn based in faith.
to have knowledge: to have faith in a secondary source of information based in observation, or to have observed something yourself.

i guess it comes down to wether or not observation was included. science vs religion is very simple, nobody has ever seen anything ever described in any religious text ever in the history of mankind.

knowledge is information. thats as far as the definition goes, and it doesnt have to go any further :]

Last edited by ZEGH8578 on 25 May 2009, 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.