Should Virginia governor Northam resign over racist pix

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Should governor Northam be forced to resign?
Yes - there should be zero tolerance 27%  27%  [ 7 ]
Yes - if Hollywood and business figures must resign over past sex harassment 8%  8%  [ 2 ]
No - he has clearly "outgrown" it 15%  15%  [ 4 ]
No - as long as he still governs effectively 38%  38%  [ 10 ]
Who cares? 12%  12%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 26

karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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10 Feb 2019, 6:58 pm

kokopelli wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
Cosby admitted having sex with the women, claiming that it was consensual, after giving them illegal drugs to get them to have sex with him.

Yeah I think he made the admission with Andrea Constandt.

My point was the defense tactics he and his lawyers used seemed awfully similar to those of Trump and Kavanaugh...or for that matter Clinton, Clarence Thomas and Harvey Weinstein


What do defense tactics have to do with it? In Cosby's case, there was corroboration. There was no such corroboration in Kavanaugh's case. Also, the victims in Cosby's case were believable. In Kavanaugh's, it stunk like a political hit job.


There was corroboration from her therapist, who said she talked about it with her years before Kavanaugh was chosen for the supreme court. That is corroboration, the therapist would have it in her notes which if she was willing to testify that the accuser talked to her about this in therapy sessions she would be willing to share with the investigation as long as she had the client's permission to share info from sessions that is otherwise convidential.



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10 Feb 2019, 7:17 pm

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
Cosby admitted having sex with the women, claiming that it was consensual, after giving them illegal drugs to get them to have sex with him.

Yeah I think he made the admission with Andrea Constandt.

My point was the defense tactics he and his lawyers used seemed awfully similar to those of Trump and Kavanaugh...or for that matter Clinton, Clarence Thomas and Harvey Weinstein


What do defense tactics have to do with it? In Cosby's case, there was corroboration. There was no such corroboration in Kavanaugh's case. Also, the victims in Cosby's case were believable. In Kavanaugh's, it stunk like a political hit job.


There was corroboration from her therapist, who said she talked about it with her years before Kavanaugh was chosen for the supreme court. That is corroboration, the therapist would have it in her notes which if she was willing to testify that the accuser talked to her about this in therapy sessions she would be willing to share with the investigation as long as she had the client's permission to share info from sessions that is otherwise convidential.


Unless the therapist witnessed the attack, her testimony would not be corroboration.



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10 Feb 2019, 9:27 pm

Note to self: Don't start any more threads like this.


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karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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10 Feb 2019, 11:49 pm

kokopelli wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
Cosby admitted having sex with the women, claiming that it was consensual, after giving them illegal drugs to get them to have sex with him.

Yeah I think he made the admission with Andrea Constandt.

My point was the defense tactics he and his lawyers used seemed awfully similar to those of Trump and Kavanaugh...or for that matter Clinton, Clarence Thomas and Harvey Weinstein


What do defense tactics have to do with it? In Cosby's case, there was corroboration. There was no such corroboration in Kavanaugh's case. Also, the victims in Cosby's case were believable. In Kavanaugh's, it stunk like a political hit job.


There was corroboration from her therapist, who said she talked about it with her years before Kavanaugh was chosen for the supreme court. That is corroboration, the therapist would have it in her notes which if she was willing to testify that the accuser talked to her about this in therapy sessions she would be willing to share with the investigation as long as she had the client's permission to share info from sessions that is otherwise convidential.


Unless the therapist witnessed the attack, her testimony would not be corroboration.


How could it not be? What possible reason could she have had to lie to her therapist about this years ago? If she talked to her therapist about it that is corroboration that it did happen to her because that is the sort of thing you would tell your therapist. That you can't see that as corroboration of her story is strange to me, but not a surprise. A lot of people (usually men but sometimes other women as well) need to not believe women in this situation and will invent all kinds of out-there theories to explain what "really" happened to them and why they would publicly lie about something like being sexually assaulted when the most likely explanation a good 95% of the time is that they were assaulted like they claim.



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11 Feb 2019, 12:32 am

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
How could it not be? What possible reason could she have had to lie to her therapist about this years ago? If she talked to her therapist about it that is corroboration that it did happen to her because that is the sort of thing you would tell your therapist.

I think Kokopelli is speaking purely legal terms that corroborating evidence would mean somebody else has to observe the rape But you are right, there is little or no reason for therapist to lie under oath. In addition the fact this is on the record many years before Kavanaugh made a bid for the high court invalidates Kokopelli's vain attempt to claim this is a political stunt by the democrats.

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
lot of people (usually men but sometimes other women as well) need to not believe women in this situation and will invent all kinds of out-there theories to explain what "really" happened to them and why they would publicly lie about something like being sexually assaulted when the most likely explanation a good 95% of the time is that they were assaulted like they claim.

There was a small window of opportunity for Kavanaugh's defense team to wiggle out of this by disputing the veracity of Blasey-Ford's testimony by attacking her. They threw mud and it appears to have stuck.
The way they achieved this was to draw on the minute possibility that the women have falsely accused Kavanaugh (always a possibility in rape/sexual assault cases) and thus force the judge to take this alternative into consideration. By doing this they have thrown the burden of proof on the victim (Blasey-Ford) and without corroboration it boils down (in legal terms) to her testimony Vs Kavanaugh's. In this respect she (Blasey-Ford) is an outstanding witness (as a professor of psychology) and somebody with her esteemed academic reputation makes it extremely unlikely she did this for publicity or that she was not able tell the actual identity of her attacker (as claimed by Kavanaugh).

Kavanaugh on the other hand shows signs of lying under oath and expressing aggressive indignation when caught, exactly displaying the characteristics made of people who have witnesses him drunk.

I think the judge has erred with caution especially given the POTUS has thrown his full (and rather substantial!) weight behind Kavanaugh's appointment. This does smack of a political decision indeed. Another victory for trump.



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11 Feb 2019, 1:07 am

not gonna get through to people who don't want you to get through to them.



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11 Feb 2019, 9:14 am

I’m a Va native. My family and friends here are at different socioeconomic levels and political views, but most are also from Va. The general consensus seems to be “lol” about the blackface. People are incredulous, and think he’s an idiot, but not offended. We are used to not having faith in our local government. If it doesn’t direct affect people in Va, they are usually fine with the actions of our representatives. I don’t know what people think of the abortion/infanticide bill- I haven’t heard anyone talk about that.

Personally, I am disgusted by the blackface. I have seen more of that than I think the average person has, just from sociology sh*t in school. There is a forgotten history behind it, that people could look into if interested. I would start with Dave Chapelle and why he dropped his show and went to Africa. Then if you don’t mind giving YouTube clicks to storefront (another story), you could watch A Birth of a Nation, which was an amazing, beautifully made film- I believe the first real feature movie that wasn’t just clips of a horse running or a lady dancing. It has real black face in it, which made me physically nauseous. Hard to do for me. It’s rough when a movie is so beautifully done but with such negative themes. It reminded me of nazi propaganda films. Which are also beautifully done. Very sad. I mean, these are things worthy of our thought and discussion. Perhaps the only good thing to come out of all of this.



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11 Feb 2019, 10:10 am

Thanks for commenting, SocOfAutism. We see so little of you these days - so your post was most welcome. I hope things are going well for you and yours.


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11 Feb 2019, 12:23 pm

...I'm a touch fascinated by the minstrel show form of blackface - in part because it's so forbidden now! But, in fact, our great-great-grandparents got down to it :lol:!
As late as the 1940s, big-time Hollywood movies with Bing Crosby, Mickey Rooney, and Ronald Reagan had blackface scenes! :roll:
The book WHERE DEAD VOICES GATHER by Nick Tosches is a biography of Emmett Miller, a blackface performer from the early 20th Century, and contains some insight about blackface.


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11 Feb 2019, 12:28 pm

Al Jolson, who was not a racist, and gave opportunities to black performers starting in the 1910s, performed considerably in "blackface."



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11 Feb 2019, 1:03 pm

...Eddie Cantor, too!! !! !


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One of the walking wounded ~ SMASHED DOWN by life and age, now prevented from even expressing myself! SOB.
" Oh, no! First you have to PROVE you deserve to go away to college! " ~ My mother, 1978 (the heyday of Andy Gibb and Player). I would still like to go.:-(
My life destroyed by Thorazine and Mellaril - and rape - and the Psychiatric/Industrial Complex. SOB:-(! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !!


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11 Feb 2019, 1:49 pm

Eddie Cantor, as a kid, went to the same summer camp I went to---but I went in 1973; he went in 1900.



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11 Feb 2019, 2:07 pm

Hi Bea!

Yeah, ya’ll are right, blackface performers were, in fact, legitimate performers during that lost era. Kind of like how (Thai? Laotian?) and Japanese theater performers were all male for a long time and so had a rich tradition of “drag” for female roles that was different from Western drag.

The thing is, there seems to be some racist themed parties in some of these upper class universities that is gross and unnecessary to me. Like I heard that one of our local universities had an OJ Simpson themed frat party. The deal was that people would come as their favorite OJ. I can see the humor in this. As a fan of slapstick, I could see a younger me showing up as Naked Gun OJ from the scene where he’s in the wheelchair and cast and rolls down the hill. But why would OJs race would come into play? He was a football player, actor, and then probably murderer. Isn’t that enough? Isn’t a person that famous and infamous beyond race? That’s what REALLY makes it racist in my opinion.



karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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11 Feb 2019, 4:14 pm

cyberdad wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
How could it not be? What possible reason could she have had to lie to her therapist about this years ago? If she talked to her therapist about it that is corroboration that it did happen to her because that is the sort of thing you would tell your therapist.

I think Kokopelli is speaking purely legal terms that corroborating evidence would mean somebody else has to observe the rape But you are right, there is little or no reason for therapist to lie under oath. In addition the fact this is on the record many years before Kavanaugh made a bid for the high court invalidates Kokopelli's vain attempt to claim this is a political stunt by the democrats.

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
lot of people (usually men but sometimes other women as well) need to not believe women in this situation and will invent all kinds of out-there theories to explain what "really" happened to them and why they would publicly lie about something like being sexually assaulted when the most likely explanation a good 95% of the time is that they were assaulted like they claim.

There was a small window of opportunity for Kavanaugh's defense team to wiggle out of this by disputing the veracity of Blasey-Ford's testimony by attacking her. They threw mud and it appears to have stuck.
The way they achieved this was to draw on the minute possibility that the women have falsely accused Kavanaugh (always a possibility in rape/sexual assault cases) and thus force the judge to take this alternative into consideration. By doing this they have thrown the burden of proof on the victim (Blasey-Ford) and without corroboration it boils down (in legal terms) to her testimony Vs Kavanaugh's. In this respect she (Blasey-Ford) is an outstanding witness (as a professor of psychology) and somebody with her esteemed academic reputation makes it extremely unlikely she did this for publicity or that she was not able tell the actual identity of her attacker (as claimed by Kavanaugh).

Kavanaugh on the other hand shows signs of lying under oath and expressing aggressive indignation when caught, exactly displaying the characteristics made of people who have witnesses him drunk.

I think the judge has erred with caution especially given the POTUS has thrown his full (and rather substantial!) weight behind Kavanaugh's appointment. This does smack of a political decision indeed. Another victory for trump.


Yes, I completely agree from what I watched of the hearings. She was an excellent witness, and I think anyone who jumps to not believing her after watching her testimony must have some psychological/emotional motivation for not wanting to believe her and for trying to make up some story explaining why she would lie about what happened to her.

Have people who claim to live by logic forgotten about Occam's razor? The simplest, most reasonable explanation for all the evidence is that Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her many years ago and when she heard he was being nominated for the supreme court she felt compelled to speak out about it because of the seriousness, the power, and the lifelong nature of that job and how unfit someone like Kavanaugh is to be appointed to it.



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11 Feb 2019, 6:02 pm

For Virginia Governor Grappling With Race, a Childhood Trying to See Beyond It

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When the United States Supreme Court ordered school districts in 1968 to dismantle their segregated classrooms, Wescott and Nancy Northam had a choice to make.

As in much of the rest of the country, private schools had popped up in the Northams’ community on Virginia’s Eastern Shore. They were havens for white parents who did not want their children in the same classrooms as black students. Mr. Northam was a lawyer, his wife a nurse, so that option was well within their means.

But the Northams — whose ancestors were among the many white slaveowners to lay roots in this rich agricultural region in the early 1800s — made what seemed like a surprising decision for people of their stature.

They kept their sons, Thomas and Ralph, in public schools.

In a region where black and white people largely lived in different communities, Ralph Northam hung around black neighborhoods with black friends. He was one of two white players on the high school basketball team in 1977, his senior year. His class had 73 students — 37 black, 36 white.

“When Ralph came up, we were chasing footballs,” said Robert Garris Jr., who is black and a friend from childhood. “We were chasing basketballs, baseballs. We were fishing. We were crabbing. We didn’t see race.”

As Mr. Northam, Virginia and the national political establishment grapple with what’s next for him, an examination of his early life in the secluded, rural fishing town of Onancock, Va., provides some clues about what shaped his perspectives on race, and how he could have fallen so short in his understanding.

Though classmates from medical school and many people outside of Onancock are calling on him to resign, many of those who know him well from his hometown are pushing back against demands that he step down.

Mr. Northam, 59, came of age in Virginia in the 1960s and ‘70s, when it hardly would have been shocking to see white people darken their faces for costumes, several people who knew him said. He lived in a place where students could attend movies and eat together across racial lines, but did not openly date outside their race.

As a pediatric neurologist and volunteer medical director at a children’s hospice, Mr. Northam visited the homes of hundreds of African-American families in crisis. And yet, many people who know him best now worry that he may have missed some basic lessons about the struggles of his black neighbors. Gerald Boyd, who is black and has lived on the Eastern Shore since 1951, said Mr. Northam’s case was a cautionary tale that the nation’s racist conditioning can snare even well-meaning people.

“That conditioning slips out in the form of thoughts and feelings and words, jokes and deeds,” he said. “Until white people have a chance to talk about how they have been conditioned, it’ll sneak up on them.”

Landowners in Virginia owned more enslaved Africans than those in any other state, and the Eastern Shore was no exception. Around 1860, Accomack County, which includes Onancock, had the highest percentage of free black people in Virginia, said Dennis Custis, a former history teacher at Onancock High School. Neighboring Northampton County, the other county on the Eastern Shore, had the highest percentage of enslaved African-Americans, he said.

Mr. Northam’s great-great grandfather, James Northam, was among the Eastern Shore’s slave owners. Mr. Northam’s father, Wescott Northam, learned this several years ago during a search for land records, but he considered the information simply “a matter of history,” the elder Mr. Northam, now 94, told the Richmond Times-Dispatch. Despite the family’s long Virginia history and the presence of African-Americans with the last name Northam in the area, Ralph Northam told the Richmond paper that he didn’t learn that his ancestors had been slaveholders until 2017, during his campaign for governor.

“My family’s complicated story is similar to Virginia’s complex history,” he said. “I have led my life,” he said, “to help others, and really not see color as an issue.”

Mr. Garris, now a church pastor, said black people were not welcome in certain communities in the county, and needed to be cautious around white people. He recalled when his basketball team traveled to Tangier Island in Chesapeake Bay for games, his coach would offer a stern warning.

“Pay attention to the ball, pay attention to the game, don’t let your eyes wander up into the stands,” Mr. Garris, who graduated from Onancock six years after Mr. Northam, recalled his coach saying. “If they catch you looking at a white girl, they might not take it kindly.”

At the direction of the state’s Democratic political machine and the urging of its allied editorial pages, Virginia fought a “Massive Resistance” campaign against court-ordered public school integration from the mid-1950s through the mid-1960s. In 1968, when Onancock High School was still predominantly white, Jack Johnson was hired as one of the school’s first black faculty members. An art teacher, Mr. Johnson grew up in a part of North Carolina where, as a black man, he was physically attacked.

Resistance to integration wasn’t as violent in Onancock as it was in many other parts of the state, but there were rocky moments, said Mr. Johnson, now 77. He recalled a white girl calling a black boy the N-word, and the boy striking the girl. Mr. Johnson said he intervened to ensure that both children were punished, and not just the black boy.

Mr. Northam started at Onancock High School three years after full integration in 1970. He came with a wry, if awkward, sense of humor. He was the guy who made faces from the church pews to make the choir girls laugh, and who bluntly approached a friend’s crush on the bus and asked her to go speak with his friend.

“Growing up, the way we were raised, my brother and I, we didn’t see color,” Mr. Northam, who declined to be interviewed for this article, said in a video posted on The Daily Times website in January.

Students would tease one another about all kinds of things, but “anything about race would have been a casual observation,” said Jarvis Bailey, 57, who is black and graduated two years after Mr. Northam. Yet students were not blind to issues of race.

Harry Mears, 54, said that one of his black friends would jokingly call him a “white cracker” and he would call the friend an oreo, a slur for a black person seen as too close to white people.

“We all did that,” said Mr. Mears, who graduated a few years after Mr. Northam and rode the same school bus. “We were all friends. We didn’t say anything to hurt each other.”

Mr. Mears recalled that when he was 17, he told his parents he was thinking about dating a black girl he liked. “They just said that they would appreciate it if I didn’t,” he said. “I respected their wishes.”

Robert Leatherbury, who is white and went to the same church as Mr. Northam in Onancock, said he used to call Mr. Northam “coonman,” but could not recall why. He knew back then that it could be taken as a slur, but “I didn’t mean it in that way,” he said.

History classes at Onancock touched only briefly on racist imagery.

“I would give an explanation of the origin of Jim Crow,” believed to be one of the first popular blackface characters, said Mr. Custis, the Onancock history teacher.

Harry Mears, 54, who graduated a few years after Mr. Northam and rode the same school bus, said teasing remarks among students about race were not unusual, but “we didn’t say anything to hurt each other.” He manages a tire store in

History classes at Onancock touched only briefly on racist imagery.

“I would give an explanation of the origin of Jim Crow,” believed to be one of the first popular blackface characters, said Mr. Custis, the Onancock history teacher.

Mr. Mears recalled that when he was about 11, a white child dressed as a basketball player in blackface came to his house on Halloween.

“We were not that far into even having the opportunity to vote, so for a white person to find it acceptable, it’s not that hard to believe,” Mr. Bailey, the former classmate, said of blackface. “I don’t know that a person in that era would equate putting on makeup as putting on blackface.”

“I’ve always known that blackface is offensive,” said Carla Savage-Wells, who was president of Mr. Northam’s class at Onancock. “I don’t think anybody, if they knew I was coming to a party, would be bold enough to show up in blackface. They certainly would know that I would be one of many who would address it if they did.”

Mr. Northam said in his news conference last week that he did not grasp the broader significance of “blackfacing” until a black aide explained it to him during his gubernatorial campaign.

On the Eastern Shore, the revelations have sowed confusion and pain.

David and Cathy Riopel, pediatricians at the Franktown Community Health Center who are white, recalled how, for a decade beginning in the mid-1990s, Mr. Northam commuted 60 miles each way to treat the children at the center, including many from African-American, Latino or Haitian families who worked on the region’s farms or in its chicken processing plants.

When Mr. Northam entered politics, “people coming in would be very upset about not being able to see him,” Ms. Riopel recalled. “We would have to reassure them that he was still helping us,” and, “that he was still on our side.”

“In politics, it seems, you can’t have anything in your past — and this is potentially something major in his past,” Mr. Riopel said. “But his lifetime of work and what he has accomplished stands for something.”

Mr. Bailey, Mr. Northam’s black schoolmate, served in Desert Storm, as did Mr. Northam, who was an Army doctor. Mr. Bailey retains a vivid memory from 1988, when his wife, Monica, was in Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, recovering from having delivered a stillborn child. “As God would have it, Ralph was doing a rotation at Walter Reed, and he found us and spent time,” Mr. Bailey, now a high school administrator, recalled.

People on the Eastern Shore “are sick about this,” he said. “We’re small, we’re not really known for a whole lot, and now we’ll be known for this.”

He is angry at the wave of Democrats who called within hours for Mr. Northam to resign.

“Racism is wrong,” Mr. Bailey said. But how ironic in a polarized nation, he said, that “the only folks who are going to give him the benefit of the doubt are those who have less to lose.”


If this history is true I hope the "offense archeologists" do not win this one.

Personal notes:
Northam is two years younger then me so he and I are of the same generation.

I have read several other accounts that blackface was not uncommon during that era in Virginia. It was certainly considered verboten where I grew up. I have heard other boomers say the same thing. In the early 70's you saw a lot of white guys with big afros, nobody made a thing out of it.

My high school(1971-1975) had a lot more racial tension than his school apparently had. The lunch tables and neighborhoods were completely segregated. The only blacks and whites that regularly interacted were the jocks. I heard "n****r" used with angry intent mostly in private plenty of times. All it would take is some white guy and a black guy to shove each other or a rumor that it happened and the whole school would be on edge. A riot never happened but there were close calls and the police had to be called a few times, even a helicopter overhead one time. You read about full-on racial brawls in Long Island and New York City high schools fairly regularly.


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