Is Trump the most undemocratic president in US history?

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Fnord
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31 Jul 2020, 9:01 am

Misslizard wrote:
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Feyokien wrote:
Caesar prepares to cross the Rubicon
I doubt he'll even make it across the Potomac without getting lost.
Can he even swim?  He might fall overboard...
From "Shark Tank" to "Shark Bait".


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Romofan
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31 Jul 2020, 10:33 am

Abraham Lincoln suspended the writ of Habeas Corpus, shut down newspapers that opposed his goals, and was a wily manipulator

Franklin Roosevelt was effectively President For Life, pushed a largely uninterested nation into a bloody World War, locked up innocent Japanese citizens, tried to undermine the Supreme Court, and was a wily manipulator



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31 Jul 2020, 2:00 pm

Romofan wrote:
Abraham Lincoln suspended the writ of Habeas Corpus, shut down newspapers that opposed his goals, and was a wily manipulator

Franklin Roosevelt was effectively President For Life, pushed a largely uninterested nation into a bloody World War, locked up innocent Japanese citizens, tried to undermine the Supreme Court, and was a wily manipulator


Yet Lincoln freed millions of people while preserving the Union. FDR hardly pushed America into WWII, as it was the Japanese who attacked us, after which Hitler declared war on us. Besides, we ended up on the right side in that conflict in which FDR helped to brilliantly gain victory.
Trump hardly has any positives, if any, in his favor.


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31 Jul 2020, 2:23 pm

i hope jared kushner gets publicly drawn and quartered


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31 Jul 2020, 2:25 pm

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Andrew Jackson, the only president to defy a Supreme Court ruling, which led to the forced removal of the Cherokee from their lands.


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envirozentinel
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31 Jul 2020, 2:53 pm

^I didn't know that but had heard he was a very bad president. Although non-American I have a great deal of sympathy for the Native Americans. Did these actions of his lead to the Cherokee "Trail of Tears"?


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Romofan
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31 Jul 2020, 3:22 pm

Yet Lincoln freed millions of people while preserving the Union.

Perhaps. Some have argued that Lincoln, a longtime railroad lawyer, was really interested in seizing land for a cross-continent railroad for the industrial concerns of the North, as well as taking the economic jewels of New Orleans and the lucrative Mississippi River trade for said bankers. I don't doubt that the pig-headed self-interest of the slave owning Southern elite played a large role, but the incentives for the North to fight are often underplayed

FDR hardly pushed America into WWII, as it was the Japanese who attacked us, after which Hitler declared war on us. Besides, we ended up on the right side in that conflict in which FDR helped to brilliantly gain victory.

Perhaps. Some have argued that it was the heavy-handed negotiating of Cordell Hull which backed the desperate Japanese into gambling on a sneak attack. Since we had broken all of their codes, we knew that such an assault was increasingly likely, and Roosevelt desired such as an excuse to get formally involved in
the war. While Hitler did technically declare war, America was pretty much bankrolling the British war effort and fighting Nazi subs already. WW2 was, like the Iraq War, a fight which our leadership wanted for their own reasons (taking over the British Empire).

Trump hardly has any positives, if any, in his favor.

Perhaps. On November 3rd (or thereabouts!), we will see if the rest of America is as reflexively anti-Trump as many WP posters are.



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31 Jul 2020, 4:23 pm

envirozentinel wrote:
^I didn't know that but had heard he was a very bad president. Although non-American I have a great deal of sympathy for the Native Americans. Did these actions of his lead to the Cherokee "Trail of Tears"?

https://www.ushistory.org/us/24f.asp


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31 Jul 2020, 5:03 pm

Unfortunately, yes.



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31 Jul 2020, 7:20 pm

Romofan wrote:
Yet Lincoln freed millions of people while preserving the Union.

Perhaps. Some have argued that Lincoln, a longtime railroad lawyer, was really interested in seizing land for a cross-continent railroad for the industrial concerns of the North, as well as taking the economic jewels of New Orleans and the lucrative Mississippi River trade for said bankers. I don't doubt that the pig-headed self-interest of the slave owning Southern elite played a large role, but the incentives for the North to fight are often underplayed

FDR hardly pushed America into WWII, as it was the Japanese who attacked us, after which Hitler declared war on us. Besides, we ended up on the right side in that conflict in which FDR helped to brilliantly gain victory.

Perhaps. Some have argued that it was the heavy-handed negotiating of Cordell Hull which backed the desperate Japanese into gambling on a sneak attack. Since we had broken all of their codes, we knew that such an assault was increasingly likely, and Roosevelt desired such as an excuse to get formally involved in
the war. While Hitler did technically declare war, America was pretty much bankrolling the British war effort and fighting Nazi subs already. WW2 was, like the Iraq War, a fight which our leadership wanted for their own reasons (taking over the British Empire).

Trump hardly has any positives, if any, in his favor.

Perhaps. On November 3rd (or thereabouts!), we will see if the rest of America is as reflexively anti-Trump as many WP posters are.



Railroad bankers and lawyers, as bad as they were, didn't fire on Fort Sumter, or force the planter aristocracy to write a declaration of independence from the United States.
If the US was hard on Japan, it was only because of Japanese expansionism and atrocities committed in China.
Just because we had broken the Japanese codes is no reason to underestimate the American military's idiocy. The notion the FDR let the fleet at Pearl Harbor be destroyed by Japan is a conspiracy theory, and nothing more. It makes little sense to have to rebuild American might when it already existed.
Yes, Britain had received financial aid from Washington DC, but only because of the genuine threat the Axis presented to the free world. If there were any ulterior motives by the Allies, the evil posed by fascism far outweighed any of it.
As the majority of Americans gave the popular vote to Clinton, I suspect Trump has even less support now.


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01 Aug 2020, 5:41 pm

I really feel like many are conflating non democratic with bad leader. He has been continuously kept in check by the underlying checks for the most part.

He doesn't come close. He didn't start Vietnam which was well , it was started by the USA using false flag tactics.

The South American destruction that was completely off the reservation.

The new deal

Invading Iraq although I suppose that was a democratic choice.

I mean trump is so inert and impotent and completely dangerous at the helm but he is far from being near the top



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01 Aug 2020, 6:20 pm

killerBunny wrote:
I really feel like many are conflating non democratic with bad leader. He has been continuously kept in check by the underlying checks for the most part.

He doesn't come close. He didn't start Vietnam which was well , it was started by the USA using false flag tactics.

The South American destruction that was completely off the reservation.

The new deal

Invading Iraq although I suppose that was a democratic choice.

I mean trump is so inert and impotent and completely dangerous at the helm but he is far from being near the top


But how was the New Deal possibly bad?


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01 Aug 2020, 7:56 pm

It is now evident that the present Administration has fully embraced, for political advantage, McCarthyism.  (I am not referring to the Republican Senator from Wisconsin.  He is only important in that his name has taken on the dictionary meaning of the word.)  It is the corruption of truth, the abandonment of the due process law.  It is the use of the big lie and the unfounded accusation against any citizen in the name of Americanism or security.  It is the rise to power of the demagogue who lives on untruth; it is the spreading of fear and the destruction of faith in every level of society.

We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.  We must remember always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law.  We will not walk in fear, one of another.  We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from a fearful people.

In a free country, we punish people for the crimes they commit, but never for the opinions they have.


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02 Aug 2020, 12:03 am

^An excellent collection of observations which everyone, whether from the US or not, needs to remember at all times.


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INTJ185
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03 Aug 2020, 4:43 pm

Feyokien wrote:
killerBunny wrote:
Rosevelt surely wins that title.


I was thinking about mentioning Roosevelt. Winning 4 consecutive terms as president (died right at the start of the 4th term), Supreme court packing, probably some other stuff that I can't remember.


I'm not sure where the "undemocratic" part is indicated in this post.

At the time, it was completely appropriate to re-elect someone to the Presidency a fourth time. I'm not aware anyone was accusing the election to be the result of voter fraud or anything like that. Roosevelt was a popular president and was not an embarrassment, scandalous, or self-profiting from the Presidency.

Roosevelt suggested the Supreme Court of the United States (SCOTUS) judges be retired at 70 yrs. old. It was a suggestion. Nothing he tried to do unilaterally. It didn't happen. But the reason he suggested it was because his New Deal legislation kept getting defeated in the Supreme Court. Eventually, he did appoint six judges to SCOTUS and his New Deal legislation passed.



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03 Aug 2020, 5:05 pm

INTJ185 wrote:
At the time, it was completely appropriate to re-elect someone to the Presidency a fourth time. I'm not aware anyone was accusing the election to be the result of voter fraud or anything like that. Roosevelt was a popular president and was not an embarrassment, scandalous, or self-profiting from the Presidency.


No president in American history served more than two terms prior to Roosevelt. No president since due to the 22nd amendment. Was it technically legal? Was it frowned upon? Yes and yes. Only four other two term U.S. presidents ever sought a third term and they were shunned by their parties due to the Washington precedent. Popularity and effectiveness are not directly correlated with democracy. The people loved Caesar and Augustus too.

INTJ185 wrote:
Roosevelt suggested the Supreme Court of the United States (SCOTUS) judges be retired at 70 yrs. old. It was a suggestion. Nothing he tried to do unilaterally. It didn't happen. But the reason he suggested it was because his New Deal legislation kept getting defeated in the Supreme Court. Eventually, he did appoint six judges to SCOTUS and his New Deal legislation passed.


My words were very brief and non descriptive. Yes the court packing never actually occurred.


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