Amy Cooper tells her side of the story

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Mountain Goat
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05 Aug 2021, 1:59 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Mountain Goat wrote:
So a black person saying while european is also a racist act? Interesting how the law works.


Has anyone, even once been documented to have called the cops and tried to use the phrase European-American to indicate what a dire threat they were facing?

apples ≠ oranges


Do you realize how many whites have been killed in some of the African countries purely due to their skin colour?

My point is that laws have to be fairly written for all races. London has areas today where if whites went in they risk their lives, and yet other races freely come and go and the worst they get is called names.

We really need fairness all round so we can call a crime a crime be it come from any race. It has to be 100% equal. If it is not equal, then we get senarios where one race which may well have been discriminated against can use one sided laws to their advantage and used them against other races. This is why we must have laws that work both ways. Any law that works one way but not the other is forcing discrimination and causing a far worse divide then if the laws had been written fairly and justly for everyone to live under and agree to.


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funeralxempire
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05 Aug 2021, 2:18 pm

Mountain Goat wrote:
Do you realize how many whites have been killed in some of the African countries purely due to their skin colour?


No I don't, would you care to provide some statistics and documentation? I assume you'll be able to demonstrate that race was the motivator and not some other cause, otherwise the claim won't stand up.

Mountain Goat wrote:
My point is that laws have to be fairly written for all races. London has areas today where if whites went in they risk their lives, and yet other races freely come and go and the worst they get is called names.

We really need fairness all round so we can call a crime a crime be it come from any race. It has to be 100% equal. If it is not equal, then we get senarios where one race which may well have been discriminated against can use one sided laws to their advantage and used them against other races. This is why we must have laws that work both ways. Any law that works one way but not the other is forcing discrimination and causing a far worse divide then if the laws had been written fairly and justly for everyone to live under and agree to.


None of this addresses how being black has often been weaponized against some people in interactions with police though. That's why I reminded you that apples ≠ oranges. Pointing out that anti-white prejudices also exist does nothing to address the issue of institutional racism, it's just a distraction.


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05 Aug 2021, 3:43 pm

I don't know about the USA but I do know about my area of the UK. Police are not allowed to arrest someone who is black for a minor crime as it is classed as discrimination against them, but no such restrictions if one is white. We have black families now who have decided on a career of crime solely because they know they can get away with it. Bedford is famous for black criminals and little by little the whites have had to abandon their houses and let the criminals take over as they have no choice, and the police are not allowed to do anything. An Indian (From India) friend used to live there. He went back to visit some of his friends and he could not believe what had happened to the town, and it has happened since the anti discrimination laws were made. Prior to these laws the police were allowed to arrest black people. Now they have to have almost committed murder before they can be arrested.

All I am asking for here in the UK is for everyone to be equal under our law. I want the laws to work both ways and protect all.

Part of an issue here (And look. I know most black people are lovely people and don't go out committing crimes) is that there are a rogue element who are taking advantage of their position and committing crimes knowing that they have an immunity and can get away with it. I also know that due to our anti-discrimination laws, if an unqualified black person and a qualified experienced white person both go for the same job in my area, unless it was a very specialist position the black person would be guaranteed to get it ahead of a white person, and I have known here in Wales employers to sack white men to employ black men solely to get the grants to employ them. We had a similar situation when we had a lot of Polish people come to live here. The government gave grants to employ them and decent local people were given the sack foe any excuse the employers could think of so that they could employ the Polish people instead. I did find the Polish were very hard workers, but due to the situation there was a lot of bad feeling here in my local town from those who had lost their jobs. Here it is very hard to get work so I can understand. Unfortunately theycojld not see that the Polish had done nothing wrong. They had been given massive EU grants to come here. The locals could not see what I was saying as they blamed the Polish!


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Last edited by Mountain Goat on 05 Aug 2021, 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

funeralxempire
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05 Aug 2021, 3:49 pm

Mountain Goat wrote:
I also know that due to our anti-discrimination laws, if an unqualified black person and a qualified experienced white person both go for the same job in my area, unless it was a very specialist position the black person would be guaranteed to get it. This I feel is wrong as I feel that the applicants should not disclose their age, race, skin colour, sex or religion and should be given a number rather then a name (Names can give away ones identity) and the employer should only be allowed to employ based on ones experience and secondly only to ones qualifications. (I also believe that regardless of who one is that everyone should have access to education for free so if they need a qualification they can work hard and get it).


Are you able to provide anything to substantiate that? That seems very unlikely to be objectively true.

The Guardian article from today seems to imply that's not the case.

Something ironic about what you were promoting as a fix is that in a lot of areas there's studies that show demonstrable discrimination against names that are likely to be perceived as black or foreign, meaning that's a solution that you'd likely end up seeing support for from the same people you're insisting the system is rigged so far in favour of that they'll get hired even when unqualified.

https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-w ... interviews
https://www.forbes.com/sites/janicegass ... 36ca950ed7
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... racism-law


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05 Aug 2021, 4:04 pm

The issue of her lawsuit ...

Were her employer's PUBLIC statements and interviews

1. Racial discrimination?
2. Sexual discrimination?
3. Defamation?


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05 Aug 2021, 4:28 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Mountain Goat wrote:
I also know that due to our anti-discrimination laws, if an unqualified black person and a qualified experienced white person both go for the same job in my area, unless it was a very specialist position the black person would be guaranteed to get it. This I feel is wrong as I feel that the applicants should not disclose their age, race, skin colour, sex or religion and should be given a number rather then a name (Names can give away ones identity) and the employer should only be allowed to employ based on ones experience and secondly only to ones qualifications. (I also believe that regardless of who one is that everyone should have access to education for free so if they need a qualification they can work hard and get it).


Are you able to provide anything to substantiate that? That seems very unlikely to be objectively true.

The Guardian article from today seems to imply that's not the case.

Something ironic about what you were promoting as a fix is that in a lot of areas there's studies that show demonstrable discrimination against names that are likely to be perceived as black or foreign, meaning that's a solution that you'd likely end up seeing support for from the same people you're insisting the system is rigged so far in favour of that they'll get hired even when unqualified.

https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-w ... interviews
https://www.forbes.com/sites/janicegass ... 36ca950ed7
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... racism-law


Yes. Ok. This man was brown rather then black. I can give his name if it is allowed? (Or would I first need his permission to include his name?)
This area has a shortage of jobs. On the rare event that a full time job comes up that is very well paid (Well as in 25k a year) and requires no specialist skills or experience, for every position available there would be averaging up to 14,000 applicants per position, so that will give you an idea of the situation before you read on.

At the time I was unemployed and I have reasonable qualifications and I had around 20 years work experience with good references. I had been unemployed for about a year to a year and a half and the only jobs available were back then known to be suspect. Jobs in a certain very well known internet trading company and a certain telephone call centre. I was warned by others not to apply as they had and had regretted it. Both companies back then employed staff for free by getting employees to work their first month in hand (Standard practice not to get wages for the first month as a type of security), therefore their pay was due at the end of the second month, and yes. You've guessed it. Both companies would sack their new employees the day before their pay day and therefore due to the contracts they had signed, they could get no pay because they were sacked. Several years later an enquiry was made into the first company and they had to end this practice.
I was lucky not to be caught in those traps as many many had as the jobcentre staff were trying to get people to take on any work they could find and these dead end jobs were the main jobs available in the area.

Now lets go back to this man I know. He is classed as an ethnic minority due to his
background as while his Dad is British, his Mum is not. He was a friend of my brothers but as he badly let my brother down my brother stopped his friendship, but this was before that happened.

Now during the time I had been looking for work, this young man had left school and gone through 60 jobs in just a few years. I thought he was joking. We all knew he was ultra lazy and therefore would not last long in a job, but I was totally puzzled as I had only two job interviews for the entire year and none had resulted in a job... So I asked him "How come you have had so many jobs?" I knew he had virtually no qualifications. I was even surprized that he had not only been interviewed for every job he applied for and got the job each time, but if he approached an employer that had no vacancies they would give someone the push to employ him!
I was surprized by his reply. He said "It is simple. I am classed as an ethnic minority so employers have to give me the job. When the real work starts and I can't handle it I walk out".

I found out employers have two reasons why they were keen to employ him. The first is they were given very generous grants by what was then the EU. The second reason was that by law they have to have a certain number of non white people in their workforce and in this area there were so few non white people, they had extreme difficulty in keeping the antidiscrimination laws.

Now in places where a great number of blacks and other minority races live like London and other English cities finding employees was easy. But here in semi rural Wales it is rare, hence why they were so saught after. If the laws accounted for the population of the area so the figures could be adjusted accordingly and if they either did away with the grants, or they gave grants to employ everyone regardless of the individuals race it would be fair.

I do accept that some incomers into this country are at a dissadvantage in their education because many have first had to learn to speak,read ad write in english before they could start to educate them, so to do this means that they are set back a bit, but I am one who thinks that the state should provide free education for all those of a working age so they can catch up if they need to, because not everyone does well in their schooling years, and the benefits of a ready well trained workforce in turn pays for itself in the longrun. We used to have such a system and though there was the odd rare person taking adavtage that was quailified in almost everything, it was the exception rather then the norm.


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Last edited by Mountain Goat on 05 Aug 2021, 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

funeralxempire
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05 Aug 2021, 4:44 pm

Are you able to provide more than an anecdote?

Statistics that show a trend would do more to support the claim than a single anecdote.


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05 Aug 2021, 5:00 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Are you able to provide more than an anecdote?

Statistics that show a trend would do more to support the claim than a single anecdote.


What does anecdote mean?

I can provide a few real life examples? I have just looked up the meaning.


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Last edited by Mountain Goat on 05 Aug 2021, 5:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Mountain Goat
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05 Aug 2021, 5:03 pm

Anecdote. A funny story?


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funeralxempire
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05 Aug 2021, 5:08 pm

Mountain Goat wrote:
Anecdote. A funny story?


A short story of an individual experience.

They're rarely effective as evidence of a trend because they're observed on an individual level.

I saw a yellow car today isn't proof yellow cars are selling more these days. (for example)


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Mountain Goat
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05 Aug 2021, 5:09 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Mountain Goat wrote:
Anecdote. A funny story?


A short story of an individual experience.

They're rarely effective as evidence of a trend because they're observed on an individual level.

I saw a yellow car today isn't proof yellow cars are selling more these days. (for example)


It is if you see lots more yellow cars pass then any other colour?

I can't think at the moment where I could possibly get official statistics from but bear in mind that it is quite common to alter statistics per area so the local athorities or official bodies do not get into trouble. I am not saying they always do but it is quite well known.

But how do I get the many real life examples to turn them into statistics? You have my mind thinking now how to input whatever it is into the search engine to ge a whatever it is result to show you? I don't have a clue where to start yet. Aren't practical experiences enough? I am not really a figures person.
Saying that I can remember wheel diameters and boiler pressures on Great Western steam locomotives... Well some of them. Like a King class is 250psi and I think a castle is 225psi if I recall?


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05 Aug 2021, 5:20 pm

Ah. I have found this. It does not show per area though but it is really fascinating.

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.ser ... les/latest

Ooh. I have noticed something. The total population in total figures has gone down with these 2011 figures compared to when I was in school and that was approx. 25 years before. Then why are they saying the population is rising as it was 68million when I was in secondary school back in the 1980's as I had to do it for school exams. Ooh. Time for a new thread!


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05 Aug 2021, 6:32 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
The man admits he takes dog treats with him to the park, so he can lure off-leash pets away from their owners.

He has a history of doing this.

That is a New York state crime called "DOG STEALING".

2010 New York Code
AGM - Agriculture & Markets
Article 26 - (350 - 379) ANIMALS
366 - Dog stealing.

2. To entice, seize or molest any dog, while it is being held or led
by any person
or while it is properly muzzled or wearing a collar with
an identification tag attached, except where such action is incidental
to the enforcement of some law or regulation;

https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2 ... le-26/366/


Doesn't he do it so the dogs won't chase the birds? As a way to be "nice" about getting errant dogs back into their owner's control? I could remember wrong, but that was what I originally got from the news back then.

I do think she was in the wrong.

I also think our whole culture of creating viral "shaming" videos is off the rails. Are people even aware when they post how many people in the following they will generate are just plain crazy? Siccing an off-the-rails crowd onto people whose offense was objectionable but not criminal creates a punishment that far exceeds the crime. It's WAY out of control. We don't end up solving anything or educating anyone; both sides just push further back into their opinions because of the toxic nature of any viral fight.


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funeralxempire
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05 Aug 2021, 6:45 pm

Mountain Goat wrote:
But how do I get the many real life examples to turn them into statistics? You have my mind thinking now how to input whatever it is into the search engine to ge a whatever it is result to show you? I don't have a clue where to start yet. Aren't practical experiences enough? I am not really a figures person.


A personal experience doesn't document a trend.

Doesn't the UK keep employment figures and break them down by demographics? If there's a trend of PoC having lower rates of unemployment that would be identified. If those rates are higher that also likely would be identified. There's a good chance those records are publicly available. Check see what the unemployment rate is between communities because if what you were claiming were true one would expect the rates of unemployment in non-white communities to be very low.

You made a claim that unqualified PoC would get hired before qualified white applicants. I don't believe that's the case and all you've had to support the claim is one guy you know. I don't believe your perception on this matter actually reflects how it plays out. If your perception is largely based on that one guy you're letting that one instance inform your opinion too much.


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05 Aug 2021, 7:08 pm

I know through experience.

Ok. In the past I have been head of a specific department in a retail store. About a decade ahd a half later I hear that the new store I was in (I had previously left the origional position to work on the railways as it is a job I always aanted to do and the pay was the same as the store manager was getting so it was a win win so I did that for 9 years and quit when I hit my first major burnout).
Now going back to where I was. I heard that the company was doing management training and with all my experience of being a department manager which was only one step down, along with my railway experience where I was in charge of the trains I worked and had athority that was much higher then a store manager had if one was comparing like for like... So I thought "Ok. Lets enquire" as I was told that another member had applied who had joined the company after I had and he had less experience in his roles.
I was told there was no chance I would get it if I applied. I asked how the other guy had ben accepted (As he had) and I was told that it was because he was an ethnic minority (I won't say his race as he would be easily identified as he is the only one in the store of that race). I had heard also that two of the women in the store had applied and asked why were they allowed to apply and I am not and I was told it was due to equal opportunities policies as they had to get more women in management then men to address the new laws.
So i was stuck earning less then minimum wage in a dead end part time job which was actually higher stress then the other positions as I was effectively doing the work for two other staff members as well as my own as they could sit back... I hit another couple of burnouts where I had to quit, take a year off, come back, burnout again.. Quit... Take another year off to recover etc.


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05 Aug 2021, 7:52 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Also, a lot of places have rules that dogs have to be leashed, so it is reasonable to ask someone to put their dog on a leash if its not.

Where the incident took place dogs are supposed to be leashed. That interviewer was remiss in not asking Amy why she did not leash her dog.

It is reasonable to ask, it is not reasonable to threaten the owner and lure the dog from the owner. Ironically Christian should have called the police.


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